Can someone seriously explain why... Options

[Raijinili]

Star Ocean 3 is disliked, or thought of as "mediocre" by most gaming comminuties, yet Tales of Symphonia and The Abyss are regarded pretty highly? None of these games have particulary redeeming features in terms of dungeon design (except Star Ocean 3 has more), story (Abyss has an above average one, but it's nothing amazing), characters (Abyss has the best characters out of all 3, but many make no sense at times, and Abyss by far has the worst voice acting. In Star Ocean 3 it is merely stupid, but there is real emphasis and feeling in much of the battle quotes, Symphonia is so hilariously cheesy it's good, but Abyss takes itself too seriously to be fun), graphics (Symphonia wins, no contest) or anything else.

The only truly "great" material in these games is the battle system.
Both Tales games are incredibly slow to get started, and are ridiculously basic and undeveloped till lategame. Symphonia is hindered by being effectively set to 2d, and is very easy.
Abyss suffers from the same "lategame skills" syndrome, and the game is a chore to play till then. It's free run system, whilst good for being a first for the series, is badly implemented, as there is an overwhelming amount of delay in many situations where it is critical to be able to use it on reflex.

Both of them suffer from laggy controls, (taking actual seconds to get back to being able to run or attack from jumps, jump attacks, or artes/skills is ridiculous), and manual mode is extremely tedious to use in Abyss, since being a few degrees off from your aim without realigning yourself along the 2d plane causes attacks to miss.

Neither have impressive skills to use, with both games overusing "Symbol appears on ground, lights explode" as a mainstay for "ultimate" abilities.


Star Ocean 3 suffers from the "lategame skill" disorder somewhat as well, but makes up for it for actually being difficult, albiet frustrating at times. The fury system stops exactly what makes Tales games so easy, gangrapes. Mindlessly attacking with everyone at the same till will most likely end up triggering an AAA counter of some sort, that will stun, damage, or outright kill members of your party, or possibly heal the enemy you're trying to attack.
Because the game is designed with completely free full 360 motion in mind from the start (no free run), many attacks and abilities rely on your ability to make use of the field. (Abyss does this in small measures, but is still very easy to cope with otherwise, and FoFs are impossible to learn to correspondance unless you check an FAQ or try EVERY SINGLE ONE.)
The game as a whole is MUCH faster paced than any Tales game, and there is no incredibly frustrating delay on movement, dodging, or skill recovery. Almost as soon as you get a single scale bunny, you are running at close to full speed.
The game also does not limit you to a mere 2 skills per combo for 80% of it, and in fact, upon learning Berserk, it is possible to chain up abilities to over 8 or 9 uses, which can be further fixed with the item creation system, and refining reduction of fury costs.
The battle system actually ENCOURAGES chain combos from multiple characters, instead of merely spamming shit as Lloyd/Luke/Guy and letting your spellcasters rape, example;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8NObPWKvbSU

Full Active mode is far better than Abyss' manual, as slight miscalculations are not punished so harshly, although both effectively do the same thing (cease your running up towards enemies when you input attack commands)

Star Ocean 3 actually provides a decent level of difficulty within it, as even on normal, many enemies are capable of killing you very quickly if you are not paying attention. On 4D, this escalates to almost anything having oneshot potential, but because of the reflex based combat system, it is nearly always the fault of the player and his or her skill, as opposed to controls, that caused game over.



SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS PLZ

I SORT OF LIKE SYMPHONIA, ABYSS IS TERRIBLE AND I'M 3/4 IN NOW, AND I THINK STAR OCEAN 3 IS BRILLIANT.

NO ONE AGREES.




Oh also, Abyss has shit music. Star Ocean 3 has great music, and Symphonia has pretty nice music.

This post has been edited by Irysa: Mar 22 2008, 08:38 PM

[Raijinili]

I think Star Ocean 3 is great so far, but I don't think I'm even halfway through it yet. Haven't touched the second disk yet.
Again borrowing my friend's game/memory card/PS2.

Though I like the Tales Series, I do find that Sta Ocean is much more enjoyable; since you don't just spam attacks

-Dusty

This post has been edited by DustyHaru: Mar 22 2008, 09:20 PM

[Raijinili]

I thought the first disc of SO3 was pretty yuck, but better than Abyss or Symphonia.

[Raijinili]

Not everyone likes hard games that potentially rape the player.

Other than that, I'm thinking it probably just comes down to personal preference. I like Symphonia, I'll probably like Abyss, and I'll probably like SO3 once I can force myself to play past the first disc. SO3 looks really awesome for endgame, to be honest. :|

This post has been edited by Yuka: Mar 22 2008, 09:35 PM

[Raijinili]

When it is the player's fault for being raped, then it's merely that you suck at games.


If you geninuely find no challenge at all fun, then, o.k, I guess I can't argue with that though.

This post has been edited by Irysa: Mar 22 2008, 09:43 PM

[Raijinili]

For me, the thing that decides it is gameplay. Everything feels really unrefined in SO3. Part of the problem is the difficulty. But it's not like, "THIS IS TOO HARD FOR ME CRY CRY CRY" it's more like "This is hard in a stupid way, how dull." I don't know, the way the game FEELS when you're playing it is just really boring compared to Tales. At least for me. I rarely thought ToA's battles were boring, so there's already clearly some sort of difference in what we think of as fun.

[Raijinili]

Since I know your judgement of Star Ocean 3 is based on 2, I'll try to explain things.

Everything feels really unrefined in SO3.

Throw this down to tri-Ace being inexperienced with 3d gaming in general in Star Ocean 2.

3 feels refined enough, although I will not deny it does not truly "click" till about the second disc, for me anyway. Then suddenly everything worked out perfectly.

Part of the problem is the difficulty. But it's not like, "THIS IS TOO HARD FOR ME CRY CRY CRY" it's more like "This is hard in a stupid way, how dull."

Earth Mode is there for a reason.

Went over the rest of it in the channel, SO3 offers far more options to dodge, defend, and keep enemies away from weaker characters.

I don't know, the way the game FEELS when you're playing it is just really boring compared to Tales. At least for me. I rarely thought ToA's battles were boring, so there's already clearly some sort of difference in what we think of as fun.

The real bordeom in Tales games for me stems from lack of challenge and the pacing of the fights. They're all so very slow compared to Star Ocean 3.

Namco doesn't seem to know how to make something difficult without tripling it's HP and damage instead of improving the AI.

The PAL version of Symphonia is even worse, go watch a video if you don't believe me.

This post has been edited by Irysa: Mar 22 2008, 11:02 PM

[Raijinili]

Having been playing SO3 for a week now (so I can properly say I hate it when I beat it), I have come to the conclusion on a few things. One, SO3 is a lot of fun once you get the hang of it, and two, it deserves a lot more credit than it gets.

[Raijinili]

I liked SO3 a lot more then the Tales games as well.

[Raijinili]

Having finished SO3 about 30 minutes ago, I have one thing to say: Spiral Tower is infinitely superior to any Tales final dungeon.

Tri-Ace really outdid themselves with that dungeon, and Sakuraba is a musical god when he wants to.

[Raijinili]

Personally, I had a very hard time getting past the first disc in Star Ocean 3, but the rest of the game was above average.

TotA was awesome, but I had trouble with ToS's characters (I try to like them but fail).

To put it simply, TotA started out slow then sped up quickly, ToS stumbles at the start and never really recovers, and SO3 hit me in the head with a rock then kicked me.

So there's my opinion. So yeah, I don't agree. Oh well.

[Raijinili]

In Star Ocean 3 it is merely stupid, but there is real emphasis and feeling in much of the battle quotes, Symphonia is so hilariously cheesy it's good, but Abyss takes itself too seriously to be fun), graphics (Symphonia wins, no contest) or anything else.

I dunno, I liked Abyss' voicing more. Johnny Yong Bosch ftw. And as for graphics, outside of some hiccups I can honestly say Abyss' aesthetics win over, but SO3 has better overall graphical quality.

Abyss suffers from the same "lategame skills" syndrome, and the game is a chore to play till then. It's free run system, whilst good for being a first for the series, is badly implemented, as there is an overwhelming amount of delay in many situations where it is critical to be able to use it on reflex.

How so? I was able to use it very effectively, and each character has a different reaction time/speed, so you had to adjust accordingly. And lategame skills? Which ones are you referring to? Elaborate.

Both of them suffer from laggy controls, (taking actual seconds to get back to being able to run or attack from jumps, jump attacks, or artes/skills is ridiculous), and manual mode is extremely tedious to use in Abyss, since being a few degrees off from your aim without realigning yourself along the 2d plane causes attacks to miss.

On the first point, it's to make each character distinct. Guy is fast but has a longer pause time afetr attacks than Luke, who has average speed and pause time. I've used both and I've adjusted my playing style for Guy's abilities. And the second point is moot, since all you really need is practice. I almost never miss my target now.

Neither have impressive skills to use, with both games overusing "Symbol appears on ground, lights explode" as a mainstay for "ultimate" abilities.

Uhhhhhhhh... I don't recall anything of the sort in Symphonia, if this is a reference to FoE fields in Abyss, which I admit were idiotic and annoying to use effectively.

Star Ocean 3 suffers from the "lategame skill" disorder somewhat as well, but makes up for it for actually being difficult, albiet frustrating at times. The fury system stops exactly what makes Tales games so easy, gangrapes. Mindlessly attacking with everyone at the same till will most likely end up triggering an AAA counter of some sort, that will stun, damage, or outright kill members of your party, or possibly heal the enemy you're trying to attack.
Because the game is designed with completely free full 360 motion in mind from the start (no free run), many attacks and abilities rely on your ability to make use of the field.

The game was cheap as hell at times. And MP death was retarded. Innovative, maybe. But still retarded.

The game as a whole is MUCH faster paced than any Tales game, and there is no incredibly frustrating delay on movement, dodging, or skill recovery. Almost as soon as you get a single scale bunny, you are running at close to full speed.

True, true. But then comes the kicker: if you initiate any attack, your character RUNS AT THE ENEMY and won't stop unless s/he gets hit or the attack succeeds. I've had my character run after enemies for a good 5-6 seconds while the enemy ran around. This is immensely annoying, especially in a game where certain enemies can rape you if you give them the slightest opening. I never found this "Free Active" mode thing you talked about, or at least have no recollection of it. I need to replay the game.

Star Ocean 3 actually provides a decent level of difficulty within it, as even on normal, many enemies are capable of killing you very quickly if you are not paying attention. On 4D, this escalates to almost anything having oneshot potential, but because of the reflex based combat system, it is nearly always the fault of the player and his or her skill, as opposed to controls, that caused game over.

Sometimes deaths can be attributed to the AI. SO3's AI is atrocious. Sometimes my allies would just STAND THERE AND DO NOTHING while my controlled character got fucked over. If I had a little bit of support I could've gotten through it easily enough, but no, that bitch Sophia stood there and watched me get castrated. That's the last time I fuck you before going into battle, Sophia.

Oh also, Abyss has shit music. Star Ocean 3 has great music, and Symphonia has pretty nice music.

WTF. SO3's music is terrible.

[Raijinili]

I dunno, I liked Abyss' voicing more. Johnny Yong Bosch ftw. And as for graphics, outside of some hiccups I can honestly say Abyss' aesthetics win over, but SO3 has better overall graphical quality.

Abyss has better voice acting in terms of cutscenes, but the battle voices lack emphasis. None of the characters have FEELING in it when they're attacking.

How so? I was able to use it very effectively, and each character has a different reaction time/speed, so you had to adjust accordingly. And lategame skills? Which ones are you referring to? Elaborate.

AD skills, that allow further combos and multiple artes. The game is basically XXX Arte Mystic Arte for far too long.

On the first point, it's to make each character distinct. Guy is fast but has a longer pause time afetr attacks than Luke, who has average speed and pause time. I've used both and I've adjusted my playing style for Guy's abilities. And the second point is moot, since all you really need is practice. I almost never miss my target now.

Every single character suffers from the delay. The fact there is a difference is hardly justifying, because it's still there in large amounts for most.

Second point is absurd to judge however, especially with the controls. I accept practice would probably get over this, but I found it far too annoying to bother with.

Uhhhhhhhh... I don't recall anything of the sort in Symphonia, if this is a reference to FoE fields in Abyss, which I admit were idiotic and annoying to use effectively.

Hi-Ougis

The game was cheap as hell at times. And MP death was retarded. Innovative, maybe. But still retarded.

I don't see why. It can let you appropirately adjust your setup, skills, equipment and the like to focus on different parts, and it stops tank characters being overpowered.

As for being cheap, only for battle trophies.

True, true. But then comes the kicker: if you initiate any attack, your character RUNS AT THE ENEMY and won't stop unless s/he gets hit or the attack succeeds. I've had my character run after enemies for a good 5-6 seconds while the enemy ran around. This is immensely annoying, especially in a game where certain enemies can rape you if you give them the slightest opening. I never found this "Free Active" mode thing you talked about, or at least have no recollection of it. I need to replay the game.

Full active mode requires 95% of Battle Trophies. It prevents you running up to enemies to hit them, and lets you use long range attacks at short range and vice versa (ie, Maria doesn't need to run to an enemy to shoot it)

And honestly, that happened to me as well, but it was so rare I found the point negligble. It was more annoying in Abyss were the aiming + the delay from Free Run were much harder to aim with.

Sometimes deaths can be attributed to the AI. SO3's AI is atrocious. Sometimes my allies would just STAND THERE AND DO NOTHING while my controlled character got fucked over. If I had a little bit of support I could've gotten through it easily enough, but no, that bitch Sophia stood there and watched me get castrated. That's the last time I fuck you before going into battle, Sophia.

Learn to AI train. Whilst the AI suffers issues in early game, once defence and attack are at 4, the AI is extremely efficient if you train them properly.

WTF. SO3's music is terrible.

I have to strongly disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A52grs9vcs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9uV3o2t7Qs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sap9N4mtqXo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5Yx1IyhG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WsMsUEAoJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmHAuIXfVis


If you honestly thought tracks like this were terrible, I guess I'll drop it though, but my respect for your tastes certainly has fallen.

This post has been edited by Irysa: Apr 6 2008, 05:16 PM

[Raijinili]

I do not recall any enemy that ran around stupidly, so the only time it took me five or six seconds to run around to attack was because the enemy targetted was on one side of the battle and the character initiating the attack was on the other side.

[Raijinili]

Abyss has better voice acting in terms of cutscenes, but the battle voices lack emphasis. None of the characters have FEELING in it when they're attacking.

I can't argue this without replaying the game again, so I'll let this one go for now.

AD skills, that allow further combos and multiple artes. The game is basically XXX Arte Mystic Arte for far too long.

I think I need to replay TotA too, I remember being able to chain attacks and gaining abilities rather early on.

Every single character suffers from the delay. The fact there is a difference is hardly justifying, because it's still there in large amounts for most.

I dunno, I've never noticed much of a delay for Luke. Maybe it's because you play more action games than I do but I find the controls for Abyss just fine.

Second point is absurd to judge however, especially with the controls. I accept practice would probably get over this, but I found it far too annoying to bother with.

How is it absurd to judge? SO3 also requires practice if you want to master it.

Hi-Ougis

Symphonia's Hi Ougis were pretty much non existant, and as for overly flashy final attacks, two words: Dimension Door. Seriously, that move was freaking broken, and you could use it whenever you wanted.

I don't see why. It can let you appropirately adjust your setup, skills, equipment and the like to focus on different parts, and it stops tank characters being overpowered.

Problem being, I don't like it when a pool of stats that are required to use abilities with can also result in my death if I use abilities. You may say it puts more strategy, I say it's complete bullshit. It's not like HP where the only way you can lose it is through damage.

As for being cheap, only for battle trophies.

Which leads to this:

Full active mode requires 95% of Battle Trophies. It prevents you running up to enemies to hit them, and lets you use long range attacks at short range and vice versa (ie, Maria doesn't need to run to an enemy to shoot it)

Had full active mode been available from the start or near the start of the game I would've definitely liked SO3 MUCH more over any Tales game. However the fact that you need fucking 95% of battle trophies is ludicrous, considering some of the requirements. By the time you get that many it's near the end of the game and you're pretty much completely accustomed to the normal battle mode, making it utterly superfluous. That was a horrible decision on their part.

And honestly, that happened to me as well, but it was so rare I found the point negligble. It was more annoying in Abyss were the aiming + the delay from Free Run were much harder to aim with.

I found the delay from Abyss more negligible than the aforementioned point. The thing in SO3 happened to me far more times than I care to count.

Learn to AI train. Whilst the AI suffers issues in early game, once defence and attack are at 4, the AI is extremely efficient if you train them properly.

I don't recall anything about AI training. Elaborate, please?

I have to strongly disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A52grs9vcs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9uV3o2t7Qs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sap9N4mtqXo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5Yx1IyhG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WsMsUEAoJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmHAuIXfVis


If you honestly thought tracks like this were terrible, I guess I'll drop it though, but my respect for your tastes certainly has fallen.

They're Sakuraba. Sakuraba's shit has taken a nosedive since the PS/N64 era. SO3, Abyss, and Symphonia are no exception to this rule. Baten Kaitos was the last half decent soundtrack he threw out and even that was pretty crappy.