Logic Puzzle, This is NOT a philosophy topic Options

[Raijinili]

The sum of all does not have a purpose.

Say that something exists. Say, also, that if it didn't exist, then everything else would be exactly the same. Therefore, that object's existence doesn't matter. If its existence doesn't matter, then it has no purpose.

How does something have a purpose? To have a purpose, it must matter. To matter, its existence must affect something. But not just anything, because if it only affected itself, then the rest of existence still wouldn't notice if it existed. So it must affect something outside of itself.

But if you take the sum of all, then there is nothing outside to affect. If it can't affect anything, then its existence doesn't matter. If its existence doesn't matter, then it has no purpose. Therefore, the existence of everything doesn't have a purpose (which isn't the same as saying that nothing has a purpose, but you might be able to use this to prove that).

Prove my 14-year-old self wrong.

Edit: Clarification: The above line means to show that the proof does not stand up. You don't have to prove the opposite conclusion.

This post has been edited by Raijinili: Jun 2 2006, 03:57 AM

[Dr Strum]

No, you do not understand.
I'll try to re-explain his idea as simply as possible. For the examples, look at instances of time and small (though not microscopic) scale, don't overcomplicate it for yourself, losing the idea in doing so.


If something affects nothing but itself, it's existance is meaningless.
An example: A grain of sand falling through the air. It's not affecting anything. It may sometime, but at the current moment, it is not doing anything, so it's existance is meaningless. Understand?

Taking everything, there is nothing left to affect.
Example: There is nothing outside of the universe, the universe is everything, so the universe has no effect on anything but itself.

With everything accounted, and nothing left to influence, that means that everything's total existance is meaningless.
Example: Back to the universe, it is everything, so there is nothing for it to affect. With nothing to affect, it is meaningless; EVERYTHING is meaningless.


Understand? Because that's as simple as I can take it.

[Rhiannon]

I'm going to kill any more posts that have nothing to do with the first post. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't post. Well. You can post to ask for clarification on things and such. But read the first post thouroughly first since apparently people don't understand it.

If you still don't understand it, Sturm's post simplifies things a bit.

[lightningdude]

[Swiyth]

[Raijinili]

[lightningdude]

That is a weird for instance, but if the spirit was said to exist, it's existence would be a puzzle to all who see the box. The spirit's existence, therefore, affects other things just because it is said to exist. People would try to figure out ways to tell if there really was a spirit inside the box. It may not have a direct affect on everyone else, but here:

If the box containing the spirit didn't exist, people wouldn't question about it. Or, if the spirit wasn't said to exist, people would still see the box as a puzzle, due to the fact that it can't be opened. The spirit's existence, like it or not, affects other things due to its rumored existence.

This post has been edited by lightningdude: Jun 3 2006, 06:43 AM

[Dr Strum]

[lightningdude]

If that is the case, then the spirit is being prevented from affecting anything, and is being affected by the box that contains it.

Since the spirit is being hindered from interacting with anything else, you cannot say that it has no purpose, since it is not able to show whether it does or not.

[Dr Strum]

You really do not understand.

[lightningdude]

Yeah yeah, the spirit might not exist. And therefore doesn't affect anything because it wouldn't matter if it did or not. I get that part.

I'm saying that even though it can't personally affect anything, its existence still matters because it causes question. The idea of it existing comes from the fact of whether it exists or not.

[Dr Strum]

The spirit affects nothing.
The idea of the spirit can, but we're not debating the idea, we're debating whether the spirit affects anything (though we shouldn't be, but you just don't get it).
Nothing outside of the box can touch, smell, hear, taste or see the spirit. Therefore, the spirit cannot affect anything. Nothing. Thus, whether the spirit exists or not is inconsequential. The world would go on the same way no matter if there was actually a spirit in the box or not. Its existance is meaningless to us.
The existance of the spirit has no impact on the idea of the spirit's existance. They are unrelated.

[lightningdude]

That's all well and good, but like I said, it is contained within something, unable to affect anything. If that spirit wasn't contained within the box, it would affect things. It is being hindered, and that hinderance is being used to prove that it doesn't affect anything.

What if my cat was contained within a small cage? He wouldn't affect me, and if I neglected him, I wouldn't affect him either. He would, however, affect me if he wasn't in the cage, and the cage is a way of hindering him.

You are going to say that I know that he exists. So what? Just because I know he exists it doesn't mean he affects me. I probably couldn't care less if he lives or not.

[Dr Strum]

Except with the cat example you gave, you can see and hear him. Probably smell him after a while too.
But no, the box hindering the spirits potential to affect things is unimportant. It doesn't matter if it COULD affect something. If it doesn't, then it's existance is pointless. Pay attention. Potential doesn't matter if it's never used.

[lightningdude]

Potential should matter if it is obstructed from being used, but that is neither here or there.

I should have said a box instead of a cage, that is my bad. Supposing he is in a box that blocks out all sound, smell, etc. He can't affect anything while he is in that box. If the box wasn't there in the first place (which isn't potential, it is differing circumstances) I would be affected by him.