Advice on defeating Aegina's valk squad in Framm?, How best to do things the hard way Options

[Raijinili]

I made no challenge, I interjected.

An interjection that went directly against her advice. Is that not a challenge?

So he's just as at fault as me for not explaining the conditions from the start.

When Suzu esplained her conditions, you rejected them. At that point, the discussion should've been about which conditions should've applied. You challenged her conditions, she didn't challenge yours. The burden was then on you to show why your conditions should've applied.

Fanelia Beam is far better than Disaresta against the Dark Aghart.
Is that statement wrong? No.
Does that mean you should waste your 1x Fanelia on the Dark Aghart? No.
If someone asks what is the best weapon against the Dark Aghart, one - without taking long term consequences into account - should respond "Fanelia." Would one? No. Because the final battle is a far better place to throw away your Fanelia.
Now in application: Did I ever claim that the Warp Shoes should be used for the Golden Wheat? No. Did I claim they were better than another method of obtaining it - disregarding future consequences? Yes. Do you understand now?

I already understood that. I never said that you claimed that Rosary was better under her conditions.

But your example doesn't work. I would not respond with no regard to long-term consequences, because I don't want someone coming back yelling about missing an opportunity because of bad advice. The cost of using Durant in the battle will most likely be not as high as losing the Dragon Killer. I would in fact respond with an answer for both cases.

Also, the analogy doesn't work. No one asked for the best, they just asked for a way. She provided a way, so she wasn't wrong.

Because Suzu doesn't know how to argue.

And what's your excuse?

Assumptions are bad for you.

This whole argument is about what assumptions to use.

[Dr Strum]

An interjection that went directly against her advice. Is that not a challenge?

No.

At that point, the discussion should've been about which conditions should've applied.

Logic has no place in real life, Rai.

I would not respond with no regard to long-term consequences,

I just said no one would respond without regard to long term conditions, did you read the entire thing?

The cost of using Durant in the battle will most likely be not as high as losing the Dragon Killer.

There's not much of a cost in losing the Dragon Killer. It's not like it stops you from defeating Dragons. I know Rhea has never used the card.

Also, the analogy doesn't work. No one asked for the best, they just asked for a way.

Your argument here doesn't work since no one asked for a way, either.

[Raijinili]

I just said no one would respond without regard to long term conditions, did you read the entire thing?

I gave a reason why one SHOULDN'T ignore long-term consequences.

There's not much of a cost in losing the Dragon Killer. It's not like it stops you from defeating Dragons. I know Rhea has never used the card.

That's irrelevant. The cost is still most likely going to be higher than the cost of using Durant.

Your argument here doesn't work since no one asked for a way, either.

Even more reason why your analogy is wrong.

[Dr Strum]

I gave a reason why one SHOULDN'T ignore long-term consequences.

That doesn't matter.

The cost is still most likely going to be higher than the cost of using Durant.

Really? Because Durant has to go all the way around, then go back; that's a massive time delay.

Even more reason why your analogy is wrong.

Try explaining within the same post you accuse.

[Raijinili]

That doesn't matter.

Your claim was that they should ignore long-term consequences. I claimed the contrary.

Really? Because Durant has to go all the way around, then go back; that's a massive time delay.

Time delay > Dragon Killer not at all?

Try explaining within the same post you accuse.

You made an analogy between someone asking "the best way" and this situation. I said it wasn't good because it was this but not that, and you responded that it wasn't even this.

[Dr Strum]

Your claim was that they should ignore long-term consequences.

Not only did I not, I said I haven't several times.

Time delay > Dragon Killer not at all?

The time delay could kill the MVP bonus that makes Dragon Killer unnecessary.

You made an analogy between someone asking "the best way" and this situation. I said it wasn't good because it was this but not that, and you responded that it wasn't even this.

But this is about the best way. What I said is no one asked; I didn't say it wasn't about the best way.

[Raijinili]

Not only did I not, I said I haven't several times.

"...one - without taking long term consequences into account - should respond 'Fanelia.'"

The time delay could kill the MVP bonus that makes Dragon Killer unnecessary.

If that's your only reason for the MVP bonus, then the Dragon Killer also makes the MVP bonus unnecessary.

But this is about the best way. What I said is no one asked; I didn't say it wasn't about the best way.

The best way unconditionally? Because that's what we're arguing over.

And I said that the analogy failed because no one asked for the best way. You claiming that this is about the best way doesn't counter my point, which was that the analogy doesn't work BECAUSE no one asked.

[Dr Strum]

"...one - without taking long term consequences into account - should respond 'Fanelia.'"

And did you read the part after that? About it being stupid to do that even though that is the answer that was asked for? Apparently not.

If that's your only reason for the MVP bonus, then the Dragon Killer also makes the MVP bonus unnecessary.

No, no, no it doesn't. Dragon Killer doesn't stop Dragon units from killing you; you still need to out-survive them.

The best way unconditionally? Because that's what we're arguing over.

No, we're not.

BECAUSE no one asked.

So Suzu is at fault for answering a question no one asked, you don't have to make him feel bad.

[Raijinili]

And did you read the part after that? About it being stupid to do that even though that is the answer that was asked for? Apparently not.

You're using a different definition of "should" than I am.

No, no, no it doesn't. Dragon Killer doesn't stop Dragon units from killing you; you still need to out-survive them.

Again, it's a conditional statement. "If that's your only reason for the MVP bonus, then the Dragon Killer also makes the MVP bonus unnecessary."

No, we're not.

Then what are we arguing about?

So Suzu is at fault for answering a question no one asked, you don't have to make him feel bad.

I don't have anything against answering a question no one asked.

[Dr Strum]

I don't have anything against answering a question no one asked.

Then why is my analogy bad?

[Raijinili]

Because the circumstances aren't the same?

[Megaolix]

With some luck, I managed to defeat them. I'll tell what happened.

Durant has the Boss Bandana equipped. Nietzsche, the Iron Choker (I wanted to save the Shell Breastplate for Inzaghi when he has the Criticalizer). Durant also had 3 stars in all but luck, which he had 2 for. Also, the Boss Bandana made him reach 4 stars in Gen

When the group appeared, my units were around the flag that was the farthest from them. Some of them moved a little, and only one valkyrie crossed the bridge to try to get my group. She stop at the second flag.

My turn, I use Durant and Nietzsche to kill the valkyrie. Durant can't move after the attack so I left him and Nietzsche where they were. I also moved Yggdra to the gate, which acted like a fort.

Aegina's group turn. Two others Valkyries pass the bridge to attack Yggdra. Yggdra, with the fort and 3 stars in attack, defeat them but don't kill them.

My turn. I move Durant on the bridge and places Nietzsche in a union with him. They kill both Valkyries. After, I move Nietzsche in the water, still in a union with Durant. I move Milanor one space from being third in the union. Then I start praying. My card at that time had around 2250 power.

Aegina's turn. She attacks Durant. Durant manages to not get a critical (after all, it's still 50%, meaning 1/2 chances of not getting one). He beats her barely with only him left. The other Valkyrie lose to Nietzsche too. Both are alive.

My turn. I use the steal card (with 2833 power at the time) to make Durant get the Golden wheat and move him back on the bridge. I place Milanor in the Union and attack. Durant defeats Aegina's with 2 units left on my side. Nietzsche defeat and kill the other Valkyrie. Milanor attacks, killing all but the head in the charge and only lose 1 guy from the counterattack. I saved all the charge bar from earlier and uses steal to get the Death Bringer. He then defeats her with only him left.

I think I got lucky, but if anyone an idea, that was what happened for me.

This post has been edited by Megaolix: Apr 5 2007, 07:57 PM