A Question about Durant, See inside for info! Options

[ChefMKT]

It is. When Steal cannot be used.

So destroying a useful item is better than picking it up after the battlefield is complete?

But I thought you moved the unit away so the enemy couldn't attack it. :O

Having cards like Sanctuary would want me to use the card's skill to it's fullest potential so in this case, I wouldn't have moved my units away.

I was talking about both the Hunter and Assassin, not both the conditions fulfilled.

I guess you'll have to luck out with how the enemy sets up their union.

Not really. They are still unlikely to win.

Depends on what stats they have, what card is able to be used and the weapon type they're up against.

Assuming you're able to pull it off.

Aggression gauge is at 100% when you have full TEC for attack skill cards I believe, or at least, one of the stats. The charge time for attack skill cards are also very short so pulling off fatal damage is rather easy.

His stats being higher have what to do with him being with the group...?

Ideally, you'd want someone strong with the group in order to take down the opposition as fast as possible. In this case, it would be Milanor pretty much always.

*throws swamp and desert terrain in your eyes*

There's only one battlefield with swamp terrain last I checked and you'd be clustered together anyway, so you just keep using low MOV cards until you're able to escape the swamp and steal from the desired unit when you get the chance. With desert terrain, most of the time you can avoid it by going along the desert road.

Seriously, MVPs mean nothing because NOT EVERYONE PLAYS THE GAME THE SAME. Whether that means playing the stupid way or not, not everyone plays the same.

More often than not, Milanor is going to be the most used unit so he's going to get a large portion of the available experience.

WRONG. The head remains on the field when you critical, and you can pillage their corpse.

Depending on the strength of the critical i.e. how many soldiers were taken out and the ATK of both parties, getting Steal off successfully can be an issue when a critical occurs.

And again you ignore my bit about Steal being unuseable.

The only times when Steal is unuseable when you have Milanor on the battlefield is when: 1) Steal has already been used. 2) If Milanor isn't anywhere near the enemies. 3) Enemy's GEN is more than your TEC

Most of the time, you only have one enemy where the item they're holding is worthwhile stealing. For battlefields where two or more items are useful, either steal the second item on the enemy's turn, or get someone with high LUK to defeat the unit to get the item to drop.

Now, why would one of the strongest units you have, be on the other side of the map where all the action is taking place? It could be because of the terrain or whatever, but logically, you'd want Milanor to be with your group in order to help the team.

Your TEC will most likely be more the the enemy's GEN simply because of how often Milanor will be used. The more he is used to engage skirmishes, the more chance he has to deal morale damage and that means more chance of him getting the MVP. More MVPs = more stats.

[Dr Strum]

Situations when Steal cannot be used but Item Break can:

• Milanor is on the wrong side of the map.
• Steal has already been used.
• Milanor does not have the TEC to successfully pull off Steal.
• Milanor would be killed trying to Steal.

I have already listed these, Rai.

[Dr Strum]

So destroying a useful item is better than picking it up after the battlefield is complete?

Do you have the LUK to pick it up? Circumstances.

Having cards like Sanctuary would want me to use the card's skill to it's fullest potential so in this case, I wouldn't have moved my units away.

Even having Sanctuary is a bad reason to leave your Assassin/Hunter there. Criticals, anyone?

I guess you'll have to luck out with how the enemy sets up their union.

*facepalm* GETTING both the Hunter and Assassin. You recall how the Hunter is optional? Remember?

Depends on what stats they have, what card is able to be used and the weapon type they're up against.

Critical, critical, critical, fatal damage! Besides, I've rarely seen the enemy send out a unit against mine that would be slaughtered.

Aggression gauge is at 100% when you have full TEC for attack skill cards I believe, or at least, one of the stats.

Neither the manual nor guide says that TEC has anything to do with the charging of aggression. And I've had end-game Yggdra start a battle with 15% charge, so I know it's not true.

The charge time for attack skill cards are also very short so pulling off fatal damage is rather easy.

I wasn't talking about pulling off the skill, I was talking about pulling off Fatal Damage.

Ideally, you'd want someone strong with the group in order to take down the opposition as fast as possible. In this case, it would be Milanor pretty much always.

You remember Mizer's annoying tendency to show up randomly? I usually left Milanor back a little to deal with him. Meaning he was not always on the side of the map where the brunt of the battle was occurring.

With desert terrain, most of the time you can avoid it by going along the desert road.

In all the desert levels, you HAVE to walk over the desert, except in one where you only have to cross it to get an item. As well, I only brought up the terrains to discount your arguement that "twelve move will get you across the map," not as a new point.

More often than not, Milanor is going to be the most used unit so he's going to get a large portion of the available experience.

Do I have to keep mentioning that Milanor is not going to be the most used character, MKT? I never used Serene in my first playthrough of Riviera.

Most of the time, you only have one enemy where the item they're holding is worthwhile stealing.

BF35 is a fantastic counter to this.

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First part has both Juvelon, that Assassin and Mardya with fucking great items to steal, the second/third part (no refill between) has Gulcasa and "Aegina" to steal from. The battlefield where you get Yggdra back is also a good counter. Both Gulcasa and Aegina show up in this one, as well. And both have protect, so it's steal or break, and you definitely want to get rid of Gulcasa's item. But this actually made me think of something; don't argue or anything because this is just an off note, but if you never steal items from the recurring characters, your playthrough probably won't be that hard because the enemies will always be poorly equipped. Back to the point, though, in BF35, Gulcasa has max LUK, and Aegina has near max. The Assassin has max LUK, and either Mardya or Juvelon has near max LUK as well, so hoping for a drop is kind of... Not likely.

Now, why would one of the strongest units you have, be on the other side of the map where all the action is taking place?

MIZER111 Multiple fronts, think about it. BF44 is a good example.

Your TEC will most likely be more the the enemy's GEN simply because of how often Milanor will be used.

Enough, stop claiming Milanor will be used the most; not everyone plays the same. You've seen the Milanor hate at GFAQs, right? Well, maybe some of them play like me and avoid using characters they don't like, regardless of power.

[ChefMKT]

Do you have the LUK to pick it up? Circumstances.

There's always items which give guranteed item drops.

Even having Sanctuary is a bad reason to leave your Assassin/Hunter there. Criticals, anyone?

That can be said for any unit. Getting criticaled usually means it's over unless your stats are a lot higher than the enemy.

*facepalm* GETTING both the Hunter and Assassin. You recall how the Hunter is optional? Remember?

I always get the hunter though, not sure about the other people but I've always gotten the optional characters whether I use them or not.

Besides, I've rarely seen the enemy send out a unit against mine that would be slaughtered.

But it does happen, and criticals, although annoying when it happens, doesn't happen all the time.

Neither the manual nor guide says that TEC has anything to do with the charging of aggression. And I've had end-game Yggdra start a battle with 15% charge, so I know it's not true.

That's funny, my hunter had 100% aggression gauge at end game for Thunderbolt. I also know that my Steal started out with roughly 25% aggression gauge at the beginning of the game. End game however, the aggression starting gauge was at around 53% using Milanor of course.

I wasn't talking about pulling off the skill, I was talking about pulling off Fatal Damage.

Fatal damage is more of a luxary than anything. If you're able to pull one off, more power to you. Gravity Chaos against Aegina anyone? :o

You remember Mizer's annoying tendency to show up randomly? I usually left Milanor back a little to deal with him. Meaning he was not always on the side of the map where the brunt of the battle was occurring.

The only battlefield where Mizer shows up where you had to have left Milanor behind to deal with him is BF07. The other times he showed up were relatively close to the action. And even then, in BF07 you'd still have Milanor's initial equip and coincidentally, items dropped when he dealt the finishing blow, regardless of the LUK of the enemy. That means you can run to the other side of the map where your goal is and still get the item. Also, in all of the Mizer occurances, I had stole from him and still got the other items as a pick up.

Spoilers for BF08

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For BF08 with Rosary and Russel, I had stolen Mizer's item. During the next phase, the cards were replenished and I was lucky enough to get Russel and Rosary in the same union when I used Steal. Of course, this won't always happen so I would have opted to get Russel's item instead of Rosary since I was planning to get Roswell in my team at the time.

In all the desert levels, you HAVE to walk over the desert, except in one where you only have to cross it to get an item. As well, I only brought up the terrains to discount your arguement that "twelve move will get you across the map," not as a new point.

In the first desert level, you don't have to walk over the desert at all. There's a complete path from start to the goal.

Do I have to keep mentioning that Milanor is not going to be the most used character, MKT? I never used Serene in my first playthrough of Riviera.

I did say that a majority of the time by a majority of the players, Milanor is going to be the most used character. Obviously, I don't have the statistics to prove that but comparing it to the early game, he is superior and what would most people do if they have a superior character? They'll keep using it.

BF35 is a fantastic counter to this.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

First part has both Juvelon, that Assassin and Mardya with fucking great items to steal, the second/third part (no refill between) has Gulcasa and "Aegina" to steal from. The battlefield where you get Yggdra back is also a good counter. Both Gulcasa and Aegina show up in this one, as well. And both have protect, so it's steal or break, and you definitely want to get rid of Gulcasa's item. But this actually made me think of something; don't argue or anything because this is just an off note, but if you never steal items from the recurring characters, your playthrough probably won't be that hard because the enemies will always be poorly equipped. Back to the point, though, in BF35, Gulcasa has max LUK, and Aegina has near max. The Assassin has max LUK, and either Mardya or Juvelon has near max LUK as well, so hoping for a drop is kind of... Not likely.

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The map where Yggdra is captured, Aegina's item can be obtained during an earlier battlefield (BF24 I believe) so that rules that one out. That means I'm free to steal Gulcasa's item and don't even worry about Aegina at all since I had gotten her item before. And I thought BF35 had those stacks of invincible knights.

Anyway, as I said above, using an item which gurantees item drops can be used here such as the four leaf clover. This frees up Steal to be used for when Gulcasa and "Aegina" storms in. Since those two are going to stick together in the same union, Steal can be used to swipe both of their items during the phase where they're protected. Better yet, equip the item which gives a guranteed drop and get their items that way if stealing from them is too risky.

MIZER111 Multiple fronts, think about it. BF44 is a good example.

3/4 Mizer occurances happen near the bulk of the attack. Besides, I use steal on Mizer anyway so I can get warp shoes which is awesome if you happen to have Rosary and not Roswell. The enemies on said battlefields involving Mizer also have low LUK so using Nietzsche or even Milanor will suffice.

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As for BF44, I had only used 4 units mainly throughout the whole game. So I got Yggdra, Durant and Cruz to handle Gulcasa and Milanor to hold the other front. In this situation, Item Break could have been a possibility, but Milanor I stole the item from the unit firing the cannon. I didn't manage to steal Gulcasa's item during this battlefield, but I do recall Gulcasa holding the exact same time in BF45 where he went all "demon blood boiling" thing so I managed to steal it from him then.

Enough, stop claiming Milanor will be used the most; not everyone plays the same. You've seen the Milanor hate at GFAQs, right? Well, maybe some of them play like me and avoid using characters they don't like, regardless of power.

I'm claiming Milanor will be used the most by the majority of the players which implies that everyone doesn't play the same way. I'm well aware that everyone doesn't play the same way.

[Dr Strum]

There's always items which give guranteed item drops.

Which you probably have to steal or have LUK to get. :X

That can be said for any unit. Getting criticaled usually means it's over unless your stats are a lot higher than the enemy.

But you speak as though Sanctuary is the end-all saviour.

I always get the hunter though, not sure about the other people but I've always gotten the optional characters whether I use them or not.

I skipped him. Just another mouth to feed.

End game however, the aggression starting gauge was at around 53% using Milanor of course.

I was lucky to get that at any point in the game.

In the first desert level, you don't have to walk over the desert at all. There's a complete path from start to the goal.

No, there actually isn't. And, besides, you miss the bath scene if you just go to the end.

The other times he showed up were relatively close to the action.

But there are circumstances in the others. EG, in BF8, I have Milanor sitting on a house blocking it from the Golems, so he couldn't steal from any of the enemies. BF9, he got trapped away from the enemies.

in BF07 you'd still have Milanor's initial equip and coincidentally, items dropped when he dealt the finishing blow, regardless of the LUK of the enemy.

But Milanor might not be able to get there, remember. And he didn't, in my game.

And I thought BF35 had those stacks of invincible knights.

I meant BF32. Everyone always has trouble with BF35, but I had the most issues with BF32, so I mix them up.

This frees up Steal to be used for when Gulcasa and "Aegina" storms in.

But remember, you can't kill in the second part of the battle, they have protect. So that only works with the third part, and what if the person with that equipped dies before then?

Since those two are going to stick together in the same union,

No.

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Aegina avoids Gulcasa like all hell until the Imperial Knights have been killed, and still then she has some peculiar behavior...

BF45 spoiler

Items are incrementel, as I pointed out. You can get two different items in BF44 from the same person, but miss either of them, or miss an earlier item, and you won't get the last item from him in BF45.

[ChefMKT]

Which you probably have to steal or have LUK to get. :X

You can find the 4-leaf clover on the ground.

But you speak as though Sanctuary is the end-all saviour.

It actually is most of the time. Well for me anyway because I had only used a handful of my units constantly. They levelled up and with some MVPs their TEC stat was quite high so I recovered quite a number of units each time I used sanctuary.

Also, I haven't tried this myself but in theory, it'd be almost unstoppable. Equipping Etherion onto a unit with extremely high TEC and sanctuary card usable...there's just no way you're going to kill them during that phase unless you get criticaled.

No, there actually isn't. And, besides, you miss the bath scene if you just go to the end.

The bath scene isn't required to finish the battlefield, it's optional. I missed it the first time because one of the damn NPCs stole my mint leaf thing prior to the battlefield. >_>

But there are circumstances in the others. EG, in BF8, I have Milanor sitting on a house blocking it from the Golems, so he couldn't steal from any of the enemies. BF9, he got trapped away from the enemies.

For BF08, I got Yggdra to defeat the golems by herself and got Milanor to handle Mizer and steal his boots. For BF09, my left hand side cleared up. The counter attack of the enemy was on the same side I had attacked previously, freeing up the path to Mizer. I used steal to get to that point to ensure he would fight against Milanor.

But Milanor might not be able to get there, remember. And he didn't, in my game.

He did in my game.

But remember, you can't kill in the second part of the battle, they have protect. So that only works with the third part, and what if the person with that equipped dies before then?

You could always risk some morale to steal their items during their protected state phase although I don't remember the morale of their card at this point in the game so it would be risky to try and steal it from them. Of course, you could always give the item to Milanor so if he dies, it's game over either way. >_>

No.

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Aegina avoids Gulcasa like all hell until the Imperial Knights have been killed, and still then she has some peculiar behavior...

I managed to get both of them in the same union constantly because I held them up at the bridge.

Items are incrementel, as I pointed out. You can get two different items in BF44 from the same person, but miss either of them, or miss an earlier item, and you won't get the last item from him in BF45.

Some items aren't incremental, once you miss the chance to steal them, you can't get them again. I thought this was the case for this battlefield but clearly I was mistaken. By the way, that item Gulcasa had was mighty useful for BF47.

[Dr Strum]

You can find the 4-leaf clover on the ground.

Isn't it random if you get it?

Also, I haven't tried this myself but in theory, it'd be almost unstoppable. Equipping Etherion onto a unit with extremely high TEC and sanctuary card usable...there's just no way you're going to kill them during that phase unless you get criticaled.

BLOOD CLAW
GENOCIDE
REINCARNATION
ITEM BREAK
REVELLION
Probably others.

The bath scene isn't required to finish the battlefield, it's optional. I missed it the first time because one of the damn NPCs stole my mint leaf thing prior to the battlefield. >_>

:O How can you play a game without getting the bath scene...? That's like going to Jerusalem and not visiting the Sexaterium.

He did in my game.

You rommed, and cheated to get the MVPs you wanted. <_< Whatever happens in your game doesn't matter.

I managed to get both of them in the same union constantly because I held them up at the bridge.

Which is, what I'm sure, most will try. But it only works that way if

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Aegina is in front, which I have NEVER seen happen, and I went through that BF twenty-something times..

Some items aren't incremental, once you miss the chance to steal them, you can't get them again.

Very few, usually only in the case where that's the last time you fight that enemy.

that item Gulcasa had was mighty useful for BF47.

How again? I stopped equipping items about BF15 or so.

[ChefMKT]

Isn't it random if you get it?

Yes, but it's still an example of an item which you don't need to rely upon stealing or having a higher LUK than the enemy.

BLOOD CLAW
GENOCIDE
REINCARNATION
ITEM BREAK
REVELLION
Probably others.

Having a high GEN will stop Blood Claw and Item Break. Yeah, Genocide and Revellion would stop it. Reincarnation is another matter altogether. But by looking at how fast the gauge charges, I'd probably say you'd get in two sanctuaries for every use of reincarnation provided it's from the empty bar to max. It could go either way.

:O How can you play a game without getting the bath scene...? That's like going to Jerusalem and not visiting the Sexaterium.

That's why I restarted my file so I could get the bath scene. <_<

You rommed, and cheated to get the MVPs you wanted. <_< Whatever happens in your game doesn't matter.

Me abusing save states to get the MVPs I wanted do not apply in this case because it takes two cards to get from where Mizer appears to Emelone. I had Nietzsche take on the entire army of Emelone and then Milanor stormed in after taking care of Mizer to get the item.

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Aegina is in front, which I have NEVER seen happen, and I went through that BF twenty-something times..

Funnily enough, that's what happened in my game. I think I was discussing this with Rhea when I was playing through it so I definitely know it did happen.

How again? I stopped equipping items about BF15 or so.

Revenge Pain, coupled with max ATK took care of the units before Reincarnation could be activated. It was useful, but not necessary.

[Dr Strum]

Yes, but it's still an example of an item which you don't need to rely upon stealing or having a higher LUK than the enemy.

And you said I made a bad example.

Having a high GEN will stop Blood Claw and Item Break.

Except the Hunter and Assassin both top out at 30 GEN. Assassins, the primary users of Bloody Claw, top with 40 TEC. 40 TEC is definitely larger than 30 GEN, equalling a Head Kill. Do not bring up MVP.

But by looking at how fast the gauge charges, I'd probably say you'd get in two sanctuaries for every use of reincarnation provided it's from the empty bar to max. It could go either way.

During which time you'll be fighting units that have an advantage over you, most likely killing you faster than you can truly recharge.

because it takes two cards to get from where Mizer appears to Emelone.

Of that time, what will your main force be doing? Waiting for Milanor? Because if they're too close, Emelone won't wait. Or, rather, her minions won't wait. If they're too far, why is Milanor fighting alone?

[ChefMKT]

And you said I made a bad example.

My example is valid because it's an item which is obtainable from no enemy which allows you to have guranteed drops by that unit if they get the finishing blow. I'm pretty sure there's at least one other item which give the same effect as the 4-leaf clover.

Except the Hunter and Assassin both top out at 30 GEN. Assassins, the primary users of Bloody Claw, top with 40 TEC. 40 TEC is definitely larger than 30 GEN, equalling a Head Kill. Do not bring up MVP.

Items can be equipped which can bring GEN up to 40. Although I think that'd still equal a Head Kill. Have to check on that. Also, I didn't actually specify that I'd put Etherion onto a Hunter / Assassin since it was only a theory that popped into my head.

During which time you'll be fighting units that have an advantage over you, most likely killing you faster than you can truly recharge.

As I said, I haven't tried this myself but a unit with full ATK and TEC should prevail in this situation.

Of that time, what will your main force be doing? Waiting for Milanor? Because if they're too close, Emelone won't wait. Or, rather, her minions won't wait. If they're too far, why is Milanor fighting alone?

One my first complete playthrough, my main force, consisting of Nietzsche and Durant would be taking out Emelone's forces whilst Milanor is waiting for Mizer. Yggdra isn't used because she doesn't stand a chance against undines, period. You might get lucky and win a battle or two, but it's worth the amount of MOV wasted to get her to that side of the map. Milanor is fighting alone because he is there to steal the boots and because it was night time when Mizer came, Milanor could handle him even on the receiving end of an uncounterable initiating attack. Because I used Steal on the same turn Mizer had appeared, Nietzsche and Durant had already taken out the entire army minus Emelone. By the time Milanor reached Emelone, she had about half morale left and I stormed her with all three and gave me the +2 MVP Bonus and since Milanor got the finishing blow, the item also dropped as well.

[Dr Strum]

My example is valid because it's an item which is obtainable from no enemy which allows you to have guranteed drops by that unit if they get the finishing blow.

It's not valid, because it's random if you get it.

Items can be equipped which can bring GEN up to 40.

There are no items that bring up any stat by two big stars. You fail.

Also, I didn't actually specify that I'd put Etherion onto a Hunter / Assassin since it was only a theory that popped into my head.

It's assumed, because we were talking about Hunters and Assassins... Why the hell are we still arguing...?

*jizzing on BF7 strategy*

You're missing my question. But, it doesn't matter as it will take us absolutely no where...

[ChefMKT]

It's not valid, because it's random if you get it.

How is it not valid? The item can be obtained without fighting enemies, the only difference between it and a normal item found on the ground is that it's not in a fixed position and there's a chance you could miss it. It's not like the odds of obtaining it are next to impossible.

There are no items that bring up any stat by two big stars. You fail.

A bad calculation on my part obviously since I don't even know how many big stars 30 and 40 are. I'm guessing it's something like 3 Big Stars and 5 Big Stars? Anyway, Blood Claw can only be used at night time and when Assassins attack at night time, you're pretty much boned anyway. =(

Just for the record, would Shield Barrier stop the effect of Blood Claw?

It's assumed, because we were talking about Hunters and Assassins... Why the hell are we still arguing...?

For the fun of it I suppose.

You're missing my question. But, it doesn't matter as it will take us absolutely no where...

Okay then. Main force is taking out Emelone's troops WHILE waiting for Milanor to take Mizer out and getting to the other side of the map. Milanor is fighiting alone because he can take Mizer by himself as long as it isn't day time on Mizer's turn. If Yggdra is with Milanor at the time, Yggdra will be the target, screwing up the Ace and the chance to use Steal.

This post has been edited by ChefMKT: Sep 24 2006, 07:15 AM

[Dr Strum]

For the fun of it I suppose.

Well, I don't find it fun, so I'll answer your questions quickly, then I'm done.

First, for each big star, it's decremental of the last big star's requirement by two.
First Big Star: Twelve little ones. (Twelve total.)
Second Big Star: Ten little ones. (22 total.)
Third Big Star: Eight little ones. (Thirty total.)
Fourth Big Star: Six little ones. (36 total.)
Fifth Big Star: Four little ones. (Forty total.)
Sixth Big Star: Two little ones. (42 total.)
For a total of 42 little stars in six big ones. I usually refer to it as the amount of little stars, since it's easier than "four big stars and three little ones."

As for Shield Barrier stopping Bloody Claw, I don't think so. It's not tested or anything, but I have a feeling Shield Barrier only blocks out elemental and terrain skills, like Gravity Chaos, Man Trap, etc. Test it and see, or I'll get Rhea to test it. Whichever.