A Question about Durant, See inside for info! Options

[Dr Strum]

How?
Yggdra may be a sword unit, but only Fencers can use Item Break.
Hunters may use bows, but they can't use Bloody Claw.
You need to stop thinking of this game in terms of weapons, instead in terms of classes.

[Dr Strum]

And it's not Ressurection, it's Reincarnation, and Revolution is not Aegina's.

[ChefMKT]

Item Break is useless though because you could always steal the item instead. And yeah, I just realised I made a mistake there. Hunters and Assassins are overpowered, not just Hunters.

[Dr Strum]

Except it's not useless. Just because you can steal an item doesn't mean you should. If the item is unusable, there's no point in having it.
Also, the Fencer you get has an ungodly high TEC when you get him, and can easily max within a few battlefields. Milanor is an if-if situation since his max untampered-with TEC stat is 40.
But, if you want a different example, let's go with Milanor and Kylier.
No one is going to say using Kylier is pointless when you have Milanor, since she can fly. But Milanor has high stats, good effects, some of the best possible equipment, and can steal.
How about Nietzsche and Durant?
I hate Durant, but he is definitely useful. In BF35 the only way to get the pick up item is with him, because he can cross over enemies, whether they're invincible or not. He's also the only permanent big unit you ever get, and big units have an advantage over small units. But Nietzsche, as you said, is great geographically. Not to mention her godly LUK, and how she can equip just about all the Morale restoring items.

But you say Hunters and Assassins are overpowered?
They both do have high TEC, but... Assassins are crippled when it comes to level twenty ATK (30) and GEN (22), Hunters have bad LUK and ATK (30 each). Couple that with them both being unable to counter, and you've got rather unappealing classes.

[ChefMKT]

Except it's not useless. Just because you can steal an item doesn't mean you should. If the item is unusable, there's no point in having it.

Then I wouldn't bother stealing that item, or breaking it for that matter.

Also, the Fencer you get has an ungodly high TEC when you get him, and can easily max within a few battlefields. Milanor is an if-if situation since his max untampered-with TEC stat is 40.

But you get to use Milanor beginning at BF01, therefore it's actually quite hard to not get an untampered TEC stat because of the amount of chances you can get MVP. As you said, if the item is unusable, there's no point in having it, but if it's useable, that means there's a point having it. Item Break destroys the item held which means you can't use the item. The only reason I can think of in using Item Break is to remove stat bonuses / effects on that unit. But you could always just steal the item for yourself during the battle. This removes the stat bonuses and effects on that enemy unit, and also allows you to use that item later for yourself.

But, if you want a different example, let's go with Milanor and Kylier.
No one is going to say using Kylier is pointless when you have Milanor, since she can fly. But Milanor has high stats, good effects, some of the best possible equipment, and can steal.

That example is not valid as Kylier isn't a permanent unit, I'm talking about the units which can actually level up. She's always popping in and out. Also, she has fixed stats during the battlefield. Her ability to fly is both good and bad depending on the situation.

How about Nietzsche and Durant?
I hate Durant, but he is definitely useful. In BF35 the only way to get the pick up item is with him, because he can cross over enemies, whether they're invincible or not. He's also the only permanent big unit you ever get, and big units have an advantage over small units. But Nietzsche, as you said, is great geographically. Not to mention her godly LUK, and how she can equip just about all the Morale restoring items.

I didn't pick up that item in BF35, what was it anyway? I didn't know about big units have an advantage against smaller units. Someone should mention these things to me! =( However, because of big units having only 3 instead of the 6 during skirmishes, if you get criticaled, it's pretty much over. What I'm trying to say is, having two decently levelled spear users is pointless, but that's just the way I play it.

But you say Hunters and Assassins are overpowered?
They both do have high TEC, but... Assassins are crippled when it comes to level twenty ATK (30) and GEN (22), Hunters have bad LUK and ATK (30 each). Couple that with them both being unable to counter, and you've got rather unappealing classes.

At level 20 though, that'd mean you'd have picked up quite a few MVPs which would boost those below average stats significantly, as well as the great items end game. But then again, any unit with full stats would demolish everything in its path.

Even though they can't counter, that also applies to the enemy on the Hunter / Assassin's initiating attack which is very, very advantageous. What I usually do is send in Yggdra to initiate the union, and because of her All Ace ability, I can use a card which my Hunter / Assassin can use such as Thunderbolt. After the skirmishes are done, I can move my bow units out of Yggdra's union formation range to prevent them from being on the receiving end of an initiating attack.

I also noticed something, the higher your TEC, the higher your starting aggression bar is. With Thunderbolt and max TEC, the aggression bar was at max. The Hunter / Assassin could equip the bow which increases effectiveness of lightning based attacks which would make Thunderbolt deal fatal damage, or overkill on units weak to lightning. What makes thunderbolt very useful is that the only unit that is immune to it are fencers, and you don't see that many during the end game. Of course, if the Ace condition is satisified, any other unit in the union can use the elemental attack card skills but I don't know the other items which increase the effectiveness of the other elements. With this, the Hunter / Assassin could kill off any unit that doesn't have elemental / lightning immunity, even on the receiving end of an initiating attack providing it isn't a critical hit.

[Dr Strum]

Then I wouldn't bother stealing that item, or breaking it for that matter.

Because you want the enemy to have as high stats as possible, right?

But you get to use Milanor beginning at BF01, therefore it's actually quite hard to not get an untampered TEC stat because of the amount of chances you can get MVP.

There is no guarantee he will get the MVP. Kobun can get the MVP, and starting in BF02 you have another character in every battlefield alongside, or instead of, Milanor.

But you could always just steal the item for yourself during the battle. This removes the stat bonuses and effects on that enemy unit, and also allows you to use that item later for yourself.

We're discussing a situation where the item is unusable. It does not heal, and it is not equippable.

That example is not valid as Kylier isn't a permanent unit, I'm talking about the units which can actually level up. She's always popping in and out. Also, she has fixed stats during the battlefield. Her ability to fly is both good and bad depending on the situation.

How is it not valid? Since when were we talking about only permanent units? I thought we were talking about units with the same weapon types.

I didn't pick up that item in BF35, what was it anyway? However, because of big units having only 3 instead of the 6 during skirmishes, if you get criticaled, it's pretty much over.

I didn't pick up the item either, but, anyways. Remember, that even with the army quantity, it doesn't make a huge difference when you're still a bigger type of unit.

What I'm trying to say is, having two decently levelled spear users is pointless, but that's just the way I play it.

And I'm trying to dispell the idea.

At level 20 though, that'd mean you'd have picked up quite a few MVPs which would boost those below average stats significantly,

I thought Milanor got all the MVPs. :X

Even though they can't counter, that also applies to the enemy on the Hunter / Assassin's initiating attack which is very, very advantageous.

MKT, I'm showing how the Hunter's and Assassin's are NOT overpowered. For every huge advantage they have, they have an equally disadvantageous trait.

I can move my bow units out of Yggdra's union formation range to prevent them from being on the receiving end of an initiating attack.

Or to cause them to get raped solo, no Yggdra helping out.

splooging all over the Thunderbolt card

Well, the item that will allow them to get Overkill only lasts a few maps. And I think there's only one, as opposed to the other elements.
Although, you do bring up an interesting point, after getting your own Fencer, there's only one story Fencer, and very few generics. But, wait. After you BF07, there's only two enemy Undines (the only enemies resistant to Ice).

[ChefMKT]

Because you want the enemy to have as high stats as possible, right?

Unless there's an item which is not equippable, does not heal morale and gives stats which I don't know about.

There is no guarantee he will get the MVP. Kobun can get the MVP, and starting in BF02 you have another character in every battlefield alongside, or instead of, Milanor.

Easily done in BF01, just don't use Kobun at all. I've managed to get Yggdra a few MVPs during the early battlefields, but it was tedious as Milanor would've ripped them apart.

We're discussing a situation where the item is unusable. It does not heal, and it is not equippable.

I don't know of any items which do this, unless you're talking about the ones at the end of the game. Even then, Milanor can easily get full stats and just steal.

How is it not valid? Since when were we talking about only permanent units? I thought we were talking about units with the same weapon types.

Well, permanent units can gain experience and level up, Kylier does not. Therefore a comparison of using Kylier and Milanor is not valid because I was talking about same weapon type units which can level up. The prime example being Durant and Nietzsche.

I didn't pick up the item either, but, anyways. Remember, that even with the army quantity, it doesn't make a huge difference when you're still a bigger type of unit.

Ah, so that's what you meant. Because of the unit size however, it makes critical hits that much more damaging.

And I'm trying to dispell the idea.

Okay then.

I thought Milanor got all the MVPs. :X

Yes, until he got max stats. Then I made my hunter get the MVPs as gettinv MVPs for Milanor would be a waste.

MKT, I'm showing how the Hunter's and Assassin's are NOT overpowered. For every huge advantage they have, they have an equally disadvantageous trait.

And these disadvantageous traits can be overcome quite easily which is why they're overpowered. Their ability to unable to counter can be easily overcome with using cards. Such example is the advantage during Day / Night which makes their attack power skyrocket. Now, some cards work great with their advantage. For example, Sanctuary with daytime for Hunters. Hell, Ace Guard would render the initiative attack useless. Bloody Claw would make the battle a lot easier as well because it'll get rid of the head unit. That means no more card skills from them and even if you lose, that's 40% of the card's damage saved as morale.

Which anyone can have.

I meant the ability where Yggdra can have an Ace with any card allowing all other units to use card skills such as Gravity Chaos and the like.

Or to cause them to get raped solo, no Yggdra helping out.

Except they won't get raped if they're decently levelled which would be the case if I wasn't using "all units possible" including the optional characters.

*splooging all over the Thunderbolt card*

Lol :( Well, I like my Thunderbolt card damnit, just like you and your Kiss of Death card!...But not as much as you. ;o

Well, the item that will allow them to get Overkill only lasts a few maps. And I think there's only one, as opposed to the other elements.

You only need the item for a few maps anyway, namely BF47 since Gulcasa has some sort of elemental immunity later on, damn bastard. Otherwise, Hunters / Assassins can manage quite well.

Although, you do bring up an interesting point, after getting your own Fencer, there's only one story Fencer, and very few generics. But, wait. After you BF07, there's only two enemy Undines (the only enemies resistant to Ice).

Yes, but I do not know of any items which increase the effectiveness of Blizzard allowing Fatal / Overkill damages but I'm sure there is. *points at Yukira's youtube video* However, Blizzard also freezes water and that is bad because that means -20% terrain bonus for Nietzsche. ;-;

And since there's very few generic fencers, that'd make having two spear units decently levelled pointless because spears > swords. However, there's plenty of valkyries later on I know that much but Milanor can take them out with Gravity Chaos. Weakness to darkness ftw.

[Dr Strum]

Unless there's an item which is not equippable, does not heal morale and gives stats which I don't know about.

I'm all but certain there is, but I thought we were arguing mostly in theory?

Easily done in BF01, just don't use Kobun at all. I've managed to get Yggdra a few MVPs during the early battlefields, but it was tedious as Milanor would've ripped them apart.

Yes, but does everyone work the same way? No.

I don't know of any items which do this, unless you're talking about the ones at the end of the game. Even then, Milanor can easily get full stats and just steal.

Again, there's no point in the theft.

Therefore a comparison of using Kylier and Milanor is not valid because I was talking about same weapon type units which can level up.

You must specify, then.

Yes, until he got max stats. Then I made my hunter get the MVPs as gettinv MVPs for Milanor would be a waste.

Not everyone understands this, however. And you can't always easily avoid giving the MVP to Milanor.

Hell, Ace Guard would render the initiative attack useless.

Assuming the Hunter wasn't the one attacked, but was just dragged into the union.

Bloody Claw would make the battle a lot easier as well because it'll get rid of the head unit.

Which only works at night.

I meant the ability where Yggdra can have an Ace with any card allowing all other units to use card skills such as Gravity Chaos and the like.

Anyone can have that effect. Leader's Hachi Maki FTFW.

Except they won't get raped if they're decently levelled which would be the case if I wasn't using "all units possible" including the optional characters.

GULCASA = RAPE MACHINE RAWR RAWR HUMP HUMP

Lol :( Well, I like my Thunderbolt card damnit, just like you and your Kiss of Death card!...But not as much as you. ;o

Except I don't like the art for Kiss of Death. I only like the functionality of it.

You only need the item for a few maps anyway, namely BF47 since Gulcasa has some sort of elemental immunity later on, damn bastard. Otherwise, Hunters / Assassins can manage quite well.

But since there's only one you can only equip it on one.

However, Blizzard also freezes water and that is bad because that means -20% terrain bonus for Nietzsche. ;-;

That's Diamond Dust, not Blizzard. And Diamond Dust can be incredibly useful, as it allows non-Undines/Griffon Riders to traverse the water, and it's not just Nietzsche that gets the -20% on ice.

Weakness to darkness ftw.

Items that resist elements ftl.

[ChefMKT]

I'm all but certain there is, but I thought we were arguing mostly in theory?

I wasn't arguing mostly in theory. >.> However, I do see what you mean though. Ingame however, Item Break is useless.

Yes, but does everyone work the same way? No.

But the point is, Milanor is usually the one that gets the MVPs.

Again, there's no point in the theft.

Aside from the fact you also get +30% of your card's POW added to morale damage when you win for a successful steal.

Not everyone understands this, however. And you can't always easily avoid giving the MVP to Milanor.

For long battlefields, it's almost impossible since Milanor will be the bulk of your attack force. On short battlefields however, it's easily done and because of the small stat boosts, it'll make those longer battlefields easier to obtain MVP for that unit instead of Milanor.

Assuming the Hunter wasn't the one attacked, but was just dragged into the union.

Which is ideal because you don't want the Hunter/Assassin attacked on the very first skirmish. Even so, the very high aggressive bar that comes from using Ace Guard is usually enough to bring down the enemy providing the Hunter/Assassin is decently statted up (whether it be from items, MVPs or levels)

Which only works at night.

As well as the Assassin getting an advantage during night time.

Anyone can have that effect. Leader's Hachi Maki FTFW.

Oh, that item. Forgot about that. Even then, it'll only last a few maps, but the effect is godly enough to warrant its use.

GULCASA = RAPE MACHINE RAWR RAWR HUMP HUMP

Gulcasa is too rough :( But that's to be expected. You can't have an antagonist which isn't a rape machine now can we?

But since there's only one you can only equip it on one.

And you only need one. Any more than one would be just plain broken.

And Diamond Dust can be incredibly useful, as it allows non-Undines/Griffon Riders to traverse the water, and it's not just Nietzsche that gets the -20% on ice.

But Nietzsche is the only one that gains terrain bonus and advantage in water. I haven't used Diamond Dust much either but...hmm. I wonder if I could win battle by drowning enemy units. xD

Items that resist elements ftl.

Until you steal it. Then it's ftw.

[Yuka]

I wasn't even aware my topic spawned such an interesting debate...

*will not enter debate, as he will seriously lose.*

[Dr Strum]

I wasn't arguing mostly in theory. >.> However, I do see what you mean though. Ingame however, Item Break is useless.

No it's not.

But the point is, Milanor is usually the one that gets the MVPs.

Mayhap for you.

Which is ideal because you don't want the Hunter/Assassin attacked on the very first skirmish.

Yet you move the Hunter/Assassin OUT of Yggdra's union path...?

As well as the Assassin getting an advantage during night time.

It's not so much of an advantage at night as the Assassin is weakened at every other time.

Even then, it'll only last a few maps, but the effect is godly enough to warrant its use.

There is also an item exclusively for Durant, that you can get off of Baldus, that does it.

And you only need one. Any more than one would be just plain broken.

But you bring it up as though both the Assassin and Hunter would be equipped with it.

battle by drowning enemy units. xD

Enemy units seem too smart to stay on ice as noon approaches, sadly. Actually, I don't think I've ever gotten one to STAY on ice...

Until you steal it. Then it's ftw.

Poor Milanor's TEC must be higher than the enemy's GEN.

[ChefMKT]

No it's not.

Yes it is.

Mayhap for you.

I'm pretty sure Rhia had Milanor hogging most of the MVPs as well.

Yet you move the Hunter/Assassin OUT of Yggdra's union path...?

Me moving the Hunter/Assassin out of Yggdra's union formation depends on what card I am currently using. If I had a card which I could use to destroy the enemy unit or recover my soldiers during battle then I'd keep them in Yggdra's formation. In the case of Ace Guard, I'd keep the Hunter / Assassin within Yggdra's formation range.

It's not so much of an advantage at night as the Assassin is weakened at every other time.

With the Assassin's very high LUK stat, critical hits are somewhat common, provided you initiated the attack of course. Also, with the Hunter running around as well, you'd always have at least one unit with an advantage on your turn seeing as how the evening phase is usually taken by the enemy.

There is also an item exclusively for Durant, that you can get off of Baldus, that does it.

Is it that cute little horse item? =o

But you bring it up as though both the Assassin and Hunter would be equipped with it.

My apologies then.

Poor Milanor's TEC must be higher than the enemy's GEN.

The only enemy I know of which has an item with elemental resistant would be Aegina, and she has low GEN. At that stage of the game however, Aegina would slaughter Milanor so Nietzsche with her high LUK must be used in order to obtain that item. Other than that, there are no other elemental resistant items that I know of. On the subject of Milanor's TEC, the only item which will prove to be hard to obtain would be in BF47 where that particular enemy has full GEN and full TEC is required in order to steal it. Other than that, Milanor's TEC is usually high enough granted you have a few MVPs under your belt. I do believe that Rhia had 5 big stars in Milanor's TEC at this point of the game.

[Dr Strum]

Yes it is.

Prove it.

I'm pretty sure Rhia had Milanor hogging most of the MVPs as well.

Rhea r a jrek

In the case of Ace Guard, I'd keep the Hunter / Assassin within Yggdra's formation range.

So the enemy can move next to them and destroy them.

seeing as how the evening phase is usually taken by the enemy.

Phases are shared. You fight at evening, then the enemy fights at evening, then you fight at night, then the enemy fights at night.

Is it that cute little horse item? =o

<_< Yes.

The only enemy I know of which has an item with elemental resistant would be Aegina,

Juvelon. He's a Necromancer with an item nullifying Holy damage. Talk about a dick.

I do believe that Rhia had 5 big stars in Milanor's TEC at this point of the game.

You keep bringing up Rhea. I PLAYED THROUGH THE GAME TOO :(

[ChefMKT]

Prove it.

Item Break: Breaks the item the unit is holding if TEC > GEN
Steal: Steals the item the unit is holding if TEC > GEN
Item Break gives +20% Card POW damage while Steal gives +30% Card POW damage. Steal takes longer to charge.

When Item Break is used, the item which the enemy was holding is destroyed. This means any effects and stat ups on the item are removed. However, when Steal is used, it gives the exact same effects. That is, any effects on the item are removed. However, what makes Steal better is that you can use that item later on. This is especially useful when none of your units have higher LUK than the enemy.

So the enemy can move next to them and destroy them.

The AI isn't too bright. It usually attacked the unit which was closest, in this case, would be Yggdra.

Phases are shared. You fight at evening, then the enemy fights at evening, then you fight at night, then the enemy fights at night.

Another aspect of the game I didn't notice. =( Oh well doesn't matter. That just means that 2/3 is during a phase where I have one unit that has the advantage.

Juvelon. He's a Necromancer with an item nullifying Holy damage. Talk about a dick.

Ow, he is a dick. =( Wait, is he the necro with the damn monocle? Or the old guy? Doesn't matter. Nothing that Steal can't handle!...Or Item Break, but Steal is better cause you can use the item after. =D

You keep bringing up Rhea. I PLAYED THROUGH THE GAME TOO :(

Yes, but I talked to Rhea about the game more. >.>

[Dr Strum]

However, what makes Steal better is that you can use that item later on. This is especially useful when none of your units have higher LUK than the enemy.

As I said, what about the items that are useless? And the situations, like, for example, when Milanor can't go up against the enemy? And what about how the Fencer you get will max out his TEC LONG before Milanor?

The AI isn't too bright. It usually attacked the unit which was closest, in this case, would be Yggdra.

I have NEVER encountered a situation where the enemy did not go after my Assassin if they could.

Another aspect of the game I didn't notice. =( Oh well doesn't matter. That just means that 2/3 is during a phase where I have one unit that has the advantage.

As I said, it's not an advantage. The units are only at their max possible strength during those times; they're not at an increased strength.

Ow, he is a dick. =( Wait, is he the necro with the damn monocle? Or the old guy?

Monocle is Mardya.

Yes, but I talked to Rhea about the game more. >.>

JERK :(