Can someone seriously explain why... Options

[Irysa]

Star Ocean 3 is disliked, or thought of as "mediocre" by most gaming comminuties, yet Tales of Symphonia and The Abyss are regarded pretty highly? None of these games have particulary redeeming features in terms of dungeon design (except Star Ocean 3 has more), story (Abyss has an above average one, but it's nothing amazing), characters (Abyss has the best characters out of all 3, but many make no sense at times, and Abyss by far has the worst voice acting. In Star Ocean 3 it is merely stupid, but there is real emphasis and feeling in much of the battle quotes, Symphonia is so hilariously cheesy it's good, but Abyss takes itself too seriously to be fun), graphics (Symphonia wins, no contest) or anything else.

The only truly "great" material in these games is the battle system.
Both Tales games are incredibly slow to get started, and are ridiculously basic and undeveloped till lategame. Symphonia is hindered by being effectively set to 2d, and is very easy.
Abyss suffers from the same "lategame skills" syndrome, and the game is a chore to play till then. It's free run system, whilst good for being a first for the series, is badly implemented, as there is an overwhelming amount of delay in many situations where it is critical to be able to use it on reflex.

Both of them suffer from laggy controls, (taking actual seconds to get back to being able to run or attack from jumps, jump attacks, or artes/skills is ridiculous), and manual mode is extremely tedious to use in Abyss, since being a few degrees off from your aim without realigning yourself along the 2d plane causes attacks to miss.

Neither have impressive skills to use, with both games overusing "Symbol appears on ground, lights explode" as a mainstay for "ultimate" abilities.


Star Ocean 3 suffers from the "lategame skill" disorder somewhat as well, but makes up for it for actually being difficult, albiet frustrating at times. The fury system stops exactly what makes Tales games so easy, gangrapes. Mindlessly attacking with everyone at the same till will most likely end up triggering an AAA counter of some sort, that will stun, damage, or outright kill members of your party, or possibly heal the enemy you're trying to attack.
Because the game is designed with completely free full 360 motion in mind from the start (no free run), many attacks and abilities rely on your ability to make use of the field. (Abyss does this in small measures, but is still very easy to cope with otherwise, and FoFs are impossible to learn to correspondance unless you check an FAQ or try EVERY SINGLE ONE.)
The game as a whole is MUCH faster paced than any Tales game, and there is no incredibly frustrating delay on movement, dodging, or skill recovery. Almost as soon as you get a single scale bunny, you are running at close to full speed.
The game also does not limit you to a mere 2 skills per combo for 80% of it, and in fact, upon learning Berserk, it is possible to chain up abilities to over 8 or 9 uses, which can be further fixed with the item creation system, and refining reduction of fury costs.
The battle system actually ENCOURAGES chain combos from multiple characters, instead of merely spamming shit as Lloyd/Luke/Guy and letting your spellcasters rape, example;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8NObPWKvbSU

Full Active mode is far better than Abyss' manual, as slight miscalculations are not punished so harshly, although both effectively do the same thing (cease your running up towards enemies when you input attack commands)

Star Ocean 3 actually provides a decent level of difficulty within it, as even on normal, many enemies are capable of killing you very quickly if you are not paying attention. On 4D, this escalates to almost anything having oneshot potential, but because of the reflex based combat system, it is nearly always the fault of the player and his or her skill, as opposed to controls, that caused game over.



SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS PLZ

I SORT OF LIKE SYMPHONIA, ABYSS IS TERRIBLE AND I'M 3/4 IN NOW, AND I THINK STAR OCEAN 3 IS BRILLIANT.

NO ONE AGREES.




Oh also, Abyss has shit music. Star Ocean 3 has great music, and Symphonia has pretty nice music.

This post has been edited by Irysa: Mar 22 2008, 08:38 PM

[Irysa]

I dunno, I liked Abyss' voicing more. Johnny Yong Bosch ftw. And as for graphics, outside of some hiccups I can honestly say Abyss' aesthetics win over, but SO3 has better overall graphical quality.

Abyss has better voice acting in terms of cutscenes, but the battle voices lack emphasis. None of the characters have FEELING in it when they're attacking.

How so? I was able to use it very effectively, and each character has a different reaction time/speed, so you had to adjust accordingly. And lategame skills? Which ones are you referring to? Elaborate.

AD skills, that allow further combos and multiple artes. The game is basically XXX Arte Mystic Arte for far too long.

On the first point, it's to make each character distinct. Guy is fast but has a longer pause time afetr attacks than Luke, who has average speed and pause time. I've used both and I've adjusted my playing style for Guy's abilities. And the second point is moot, since all you really need is practice. I almost never miss my target now.

Every single character suffers from the delay. The fact there is a difference is hardly justifying, because it's still there in large amounts for most.

Second point is absurd to judge however, especially with the controls. I accept practice would probably get over this, but I found it far too annoying to bother with.

Uhhhhhhhh... I don't recall anything of the sort in Symphonia, if this is a reference to FoE fields in Abyss, which I admit were idiotic and annoying to use effectively.

Hi-Ougis

The game was cheap as hell at times. And MP death was retarded. Innovative, maybe. But still retarded.

I don't see why. It can let you appropirately adjust your setup, skills, equipment and the like to focus on different parts, and it stops tank characters being overpowered.

As for being cheap, only for battle trophies.

True, true. But then comes the kicker: if you initiate any attack, your character RUNS AT THE ENEMY and won't stop unless s/he gets hit or the attack succeeds. I've had my character run after enemies for a good 5-6 seconds while the enemy ran around. This is immensely annoying, especially in a game where certain enemies can rape you if you give them the slightest opening. I never found this "Free Active" mode thing you talked about, or at least have no recollection of it. I need to replay the game.

Full active mode requires 95% of Battle Trophies. It prevents you running up to enemies to hit them, and lets you use long range attacks at short range and vice versa (ie, Maria doesn't need to run to an enemy to shoot it)

And honestly, that happened to me as well, but it was so rare I found the point negligble. It was more annoying in Abyss were the aiming + the delay from Free Run were much harder to aim with.

Sometimes deaths can be attributed to the AI. SO3's AI is atrocious. Sometimes my allies would just STAND THERE AND DO NOTHING while my controlled character got fucked over. If I had a little bit of support I could've gotten through it easily enough, but no, that bitch Sophia stood there and watched me get castrated. That's the last time I fuck you before going into battle, Sophia.

Learn to AI train. Whilst the AI suffers issues in early game, once defence and attack are at 4, the AI is extremely efficient if you train them properly.

WTF. SO3's music is terrible.

I have to strongly disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A52grs9vcs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9uV3o2t7Qs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sap9N4mtqXo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5Yx1IyhG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WsMsUEAoJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmHAuIXfVis


If you honestly thought tracks like this were terrible, I guess I'll drop it though, but my respect for your tastes certainly has fallen.

This post has been edited by Irysa: Apr 6 2008, 05:16 PM

[Leyviur]

Abyss has better voice acting in terms of cutscenes, but the battle voices lack emphasis. None of the characters have FEELING in it when they're attacking.

I can't argue this without replaying the game again, so I'll let this one go for now.

AD skills, that allow further combos and multiple artes. The game is basically XXX Arte Mystic Arte for far too long.

I think I need to replay TotA too, I remember being able to chain attacks and gaining abilities rather early on.

Every single character suffers from the delay. The fact there is a difference is hardly justifying, because it's still there in large amounts for most.

I dunno, I've never noticed much of a delay for Luke. Maybe it's because you play more action games than I do but I find the controls for Abyss just fine.

Second point is absurd to judge however, especially with the controls. I accept practice would probably get over this, but I found it far too annoying to bother with.

How is it absurd to judge? SO3 also requires practice if you want to master it.

Hi-Ougis

Symphonia's Hi Ougis were pretty much non existant, and as for overly flashy final attacks, two words: Dimension Door. Seriously, that move was freaking broken, and you could use it whenever you wanted.

I don't see why. It can let you appropirately adjust your setup, skills, equipment and the like to focus on different parts, and it stops tank characters being overpowered.

Problem being, I don't like it when a pool of stats that are required to use abilities with can also result in my death if I use abilities. You may say it puts more strategy, I say it's complete bullshit. It's not like HP where the only way you can lose it is through damage.

As for being cheap, only for battle trophies.

Which leads to this:

Full active mode requires 95% of Battle Trophies. It prevents you running up to enemies to hit them, and lets you use long range attacks at short range and vice versa (ie, Maria doesn't need to run to an enemy to shoot it)

Had full active mode been available from the start or near the start of the game I would've definitely liked SO3 MUCH more over any Tales game. However the fact that you need fucking 95% of battle trophies is ludicrous, considering some of the requirements. By the time you get that many it's near the end of the game and you're pretty much completely accustomed to the normal battle mode, making it utterly superfluous. That was a horrible decision on their part.

And honestly, that happened to me as well, but it was so rare I found the point negligble. It was more annoying in Abyss were the aiming + the delay from Free Run were much harder to aim with.

I found the delay from Abyss more negligible than the aforementioned point. The thing in SO3 happened to me far more times than I care to count.

Learn to AI train. Whilst the AI suffers issues in early game, once defence and attack are at 4, the AI is extremely efficient if you train them properly.

I don't recall anything about AI training. Elaborate, please?

I have to strongly disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A52grs9vcs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9uV3o2t7Qs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sap9N4mtqXo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5Yx1IyhG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WsMsUEAoJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmHAuIXfVis


If you honestly thought tracks like this were terrible, I guess I'll drop it though, but my respect for your tastes certainly has fallen.

They're Sakuraba. Sakuraba's shit has taken a nosedive since the PS/N64 era. SO3, Abyss, and Symphonia are no exception to this rule. Baten Kaitos was the last half decent soundtrack he threw out and even that was pretty crappy.

[Irysa]

I can't argue this without replaying the game again, so I'll let this one go for now.

Well, you could just youtube some videos.

I think I need to replay TotA too, I remember being able to chain attacks and gaining abilities rather early on.

You can only chain Artes into Mystic Artes for a long period of time. (as well as the obligatory XXX)

I dunno, I've never noticed much of a delay for Luke. Maybe it's because you play more action games than I do but I find the controls for Abyss just fine.

I suppose that's a valid point. I'm very used to instant reactions and canceling when it comes to action based games (DMC, Ninja Gaiden, God Hand, etc)

This infuriated me to no end in Abyss.

How is it absurd to judge? SO3 also requires practice if you want to master it.

It doesn't require as much tediousness to obtain a decent grasp of the system.

Symphonia's Hi Ougis were pretty much non existant, and as for overly flashy final attacks, two words: Dimension Door. Seriously, that move was freaking broken, and you could use it whenever you wanted.

I should think the very last moves you learn should be fucking powerful.

Dimension Door isn't particulary flashy either. And again, my main issue with them in Abyss and Symphonia is the lack of variety.

Problem being, I don't like it when a pool of stats that are required to use abilities with can also result in my death if I use abilities. You may say it puts more strategy, I say it's complete bullshit. It's not like HP where the only way you can lose it is through damage.

Early game, this can be an issue, but the bonus battle recovery negates this almost entirely in my experience.

Once you obtain regeneration symbols, you should never be significantly low on MP enough to not afford healing.

And yeah, I do think it adds strategy. It also makes using abilities like critical hit, increase MP/HP damage, and the like a valid strategy.

Had full active mode been available from the start or near the start of the game I would've definitely liked SO3 MUCH more over any Tales game. However the fact that you need fucking 95% of battle trophies is ludicrous, considering some of the requirements. By the time you get that many it's near the end of the game and you're pretty much completely accustomed to the normal battle mode, making it utterly superfluous. That was a horrible decision on their part.

I concur. I would have preferred if this was available from the start. I still don't consider the running up system to be that huge a problem, as it has only occurred very few times to me, and nearly never for others.

I found the delay from Abyss more negligible than the aforementioned point. The thing in SO3 happened to me far more times than I care to count.

I maintain that there are very few instances where your running around syndrome occurs. Unless you are constantly going for long range attacks with characters who can only attack at short range. And you can cancel into a skill during this anyway, thus ending it.

I don't recall anything about AI training. Elaborate, please?

Cleared up in the channel

They're Sakuraba. Sakuraba's shit has taken a nosedive since the PS/N64 era. SO3, Abyss, and Symphonia are no exception to this rule. Baten Kaitos was the last half decent soundtrack he threw out and even that was pretty crappy.

Preference I suppose. I thought Abyss and Symphonia were extremely subpar, but thought Star Ocean 3, Valkyrie Profile 2, and the like had brilliant music. And I thoroughly enjoyed his work on Eternal Sonata, he really needs to continue his orchestral side.


Anyway, like I said, preference. I doubt you enjoy most of Akira Yamaoka's work for example, but he's probably my favourite composer in VG music terms.