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Irysa
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/299106

To summarize in brief, the Toronto District School Board (Canada) has just approved a motion to open an all black school somewhere in downtown Toronto. The school will have only black management, teachers and only accept black students. The thrust of the project is twofold; increase attendance rates and a general interest for staying in school, and provide a more afro-centric curriculum.

This is racist. Why, after so many years of fighting against segregation and racism is something like this allowed to happen? Where are the benefits? I honestly can't think of any. But there are enough downsides to this. Aside from the general massive racism intoned in the project, there are also a number of other problems. For example, what happens when these students graduate and enter the workforce or higher education? If they're only socialized with other people of the same race, how will they react to fellow students or authority figures of different races? There is also debate as to whether or not any students actually asked for such a school to be created, as well as the question of public funding.

I have nothing against the offering of an afro-centric course as part of the curriculum... but why like this? Many people send their children to Jewish/Greek/Chinese/you-name-it (private) schools on Saturdays or Sundays, so that their kids can learn about their own culture and have an appreciation for it. That's wonderful. But why does an all black school receive public approval and funding?

Consider this. If someone now petitions for an all white school (which someone will undoubtedly do) they'll instantly be labelled as a racist. But what's the difference? Why is an all black school tolerable, but an all white school abhorred? Is it some pathetic 200 year old slavery justification that has no bearing on the real world anymore?

I'm interested in getting other viewpoints on this because quite frankly I cannot reconcile myself to the alternative viewpoint. I cannot see this school as being anything but a bad idea. I don't see how it can be anything but racist (at least on some level) and, most of all, I can't fathom how it ever received approval.
P.P.A.
I don't see the point of that. Black people are the same as white ones - except with a palette change (or vice-versa). It's not like they'd have to be taught in their own special culture, because their culture is the one of their country and/or religion, like with everyone else.
Also making an all-black schoo looks like declaring them a minority. Which is stupid, as they're part of the society not more or less than anyone else.

But then we don't have many racist problems here in Germany so I dunno if I can even say anything. >_>
Lloyd Seegymont the Rasier
If this isn't a step back in sociaty, I don't know what is. All the hard work and blood sacrificed to put an end to segregation, and now this. This is a fucking slap in the face.
jcdietz03
What is wrong with black people?
On average, they have lower test scores (primary school students).
On average they have lower incomes (both men and women).
On average they commit more crimes.
These are all stereotypes, but on average they are all true.

Furthermore, I think black people who are around white people (i.e., black people who live/grow up in primarily white neighborhoods) do much much better than average black people. Barack Obama is an anecdote. I think the converse is also true. I don't know if there are any studies that conclude this, though.

Being all by themselves in their own school is the last thing black people need.

The USA supreme court has said that for education to be equal, black and white student must go to the same school, sit in the same class, and be taught by the same teachers. That is why integration was ordered. To get around that (in the USA), white and black people have organized into separate communities. If everyone in your community is white (or black), then that's who goes to the school.
Lloyd Seegymont the Rasier
QUOTE(jcdietz03 @ Feb 4 2008, 03:55 PM) *

Furthermore, I think black people who are around white people (i.e., black people who live/grow up in primarily white neighborhoods) do much much better than average black people.

What proof do you have to make such a claim?
Yuka
What proof can you bring to counter his claim?
jcdietz03
Ah well it's up to the person making the claim (that's me) to provide proof. In a court of law that is. But I think for discussion forums too.

I don't know where you would go to get such a study. It would be problematic to conduct such a study. Do the black kids at the white school have high scores because the average score at their school is higher? Or is because of the white students themselves that their score is high? If you did nothing but look at test scores of black students, I'm sure the average score at the primarily white school would be higher than the primarily black school. I'll look for a study on this.

For income (black vs. white), you can to the the us dept. of labor site, labor.gov (I think). They have a bunch of stats on there you can look at.
Wally
The dropouts at my high school generally had much bigger problems than a lack of interest or "not connecting" with the teachers.
Raij|Away
Where does that say that the school is "all black"?

QUOTE(PPA)
Black people are the same as white ones - except with a palette change (or vice-versa).
Depends on what you mean by "the same". They don't have equal footing in the job market, for example (one study in the United States showed that "black" people (i.e. fake people with names that are stereotypically black) without criminal records are AS LIKELY as white people with felonies to get a call back on a job). They don't have equal education opportunities, on average. because they are more likely to live in poor neighborhoods and thus go to schools with terrible learning environments. They get scholarships that people of other races don't (LSAMP gives money to students who are in the fields of math and the natural sciences, for example, but they have to be of an underrepresented minority i.e. not Asian). They're probably not treated the same way by teachers, as well. Being "equal" biologically doesn't make you equal in the world, which is an important consideration when you decide what race you want to be reincarnated into next.

QUOTE(jcdietz)
What is wrong with black people?
This is entirely the wrong question to ask. Mostly, it's a circumstance of birth. No one asks to be born into a race which was oppressed for so long that they had to adopt another culture to survive. No one asked to be born into a minority which important people in the majority (i.e. the people with money) would discriminate against.

If you want an analogy, what is wrong with women? There are fewer female academics with prizes in the natural sciences and mathematics than there are males, and the Putnam exam even has a special prize for high female scorers (which isn't even awarded anually), because women have never made up more than two (I believe) of the top 5. The richest people in the world are mostly men, and even the vast majority of the high rankers in the business world are men. There's not a woman who has even been a VICE president of the United States.

Or put another way, what is wrong with atheists? When was the last time you heard of an atheist governor? About 50% of Americans won't even vote for an atheist president, even if you assume that the person has all the qualifications. In fact, people are more likely to vote for a gay President than an atheist president.

It's not a problem inherent in black people. You can't blame them for the rap culture, the drug culture, just because they happen to black people more often. If you walk into a Chinese restaurant (and I mean a real Chinese restaurant), you see Chinese people behind the counter, and maybe some Hispanics as kitchen workers (i.e. behind the scenes). Similarly, if you look at the companies without equal opportunity (affirmative action) policies, you'll see that the proportion of blacks employed would not be consistent with the proportion of qualified blacks in the set of qualified professionals.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
Barack Obama is an anecdote.
Anecdotes prove nothing.

However, there was a study done on black students who went to expensive private schools, and they did about as well as their peers in private schools schools. So you're half right, by accident.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
Being all by themselves in their own school is the last thing black people need.
That is, without a doubt, the most retarded thing I've heard all week, and I was watching the stupidest game show moments on Youtube last night ("Isn't Europe a country?").

It's like you're saying that whiteness, which in your view is equivalent with success, can "rub off" onto a black person. You sound like a hundred-year-old anthropologist. Do you also subscribe to the view that giraffes have long necks because they stretched a lot and then pass their self-mutated genes to their children?
QUOTE(jcdietz)
To get around that (in the USA), white and black people have organized into separate communities.
Usually white people choose not to move into black neighborhoods, while poor black people don't really have much of a choice, do they? Try to understand that economic differences matter more than an individual's race, up to the point where educators don't care and employers discriminate.
jcdietz03
QUOTE(Raij|Away @ Feb 6 2008, 08:22 PM) *

QUOTE(jcdietz)
What is wrong with black people?
This is entirely the wrong question to ask.
OK, what's the right question?
QUOTE(Raij|Away @ Feb 6 2008, 08:22 PM) *

If you want an analogy, what is wrong with women?
Women seem about as smart as men (for primary school age students, girls are actually smarter). Women's suffrage was around World War 1 (1910s), right? In that short time, women have managed to make up most of the ground against men. Black suffrage was granted in 1860 and they are still stuck in the gutter.
QUOTE(Raij|Away @ Feb 6 2008, 08:22 PM) *
Or put another way, what is wrong with atheists?
You can choose whether or not you're an atheist.
QUOTE(Raij|Away @ Feb 6 2008, 08:22 PM) *
Do you also subscribe to the view that giraffes have long necks because they stretched a lot and then pass their self-mutated genes to their children?
Thanks for that nice straw man argument.

As for your other arguments, I think they are good. I didn't know about that study you mentioned. How 'bout a link?

And anecdotes prove that at least it's possible for something to happen.
Yuka
I have met a lot more stupid girls than smart girls, therefore I doubt your claim.
jcdietz03
QUOTE(Yuka @ Feb 7 2008, 12:41 AM) *

I have met a lot more stupid girls than smart girls, therefore I doubt your claim.

Yuka, here is a link for you. There are countless others all over the internets.
Wally
QUOTE(Raij|Away @ Feb 6 2008, 03:22 PM) *

Where does that say that the school is "all black"?

QUOTE
In an impassioned bid to separate rumours from the real proposal, Donna Harrow reminded trustees that this proposed school would be open to all students.

Harrow said the debate has been made overly charged by those raising the ghost of the segregated South.

"This has turned into a fiasco – we did not propose a school for only blacks, we did not propose a school with all black teachers and all black curriculum.

"Let us stop it. This is a school where all people could come and get support.

No one said little white children could not go there."

Macleans


It's supposed to be open to anyone, but the main purpose is to help solve the 40% dropout problem, so it would kinda defeat the purpose if the school wasn't mainly filled with black students.
Irysa
QUOTE(Yuka @ Feb 7 2008, 12:41 AM) *

I have met a lot more stupid girls than smart girls, therefore I doubt your claim.

The internet is not the majority of women.
Raijinili
QUOTE(jcdietz)
Women seem about as smart as men (for primary school age students, girls are actually smarter).
No. Girls are more likely to study, which doesn't make them inherently smarter.

Just like how black people doing poorly in school doesn't make them inherently dumber than white people, and Asians doing better in math doesn't mean that they're inherently better in math (it can be explained by 1) Asian immigrant children are less likely to be independent, and more obedient, so they are more likely to do better in school, and 2) Asian immigrant children don't learn English as a first language, so this makes up for the studying factor).
QUOTE(jcdietz)
In that short time, women have managed to make up most of the ground against men. Black suffrage was granted in 1860 and they are still stuck in the gutter.
Bias against blacks is more significant than bias against women. Black people are seen as dangerous, dishonest, and untrustworthy, so they're less likely to get jobs, which means they stay poor, which mean their children are raised poor, which means that they're more likely to go into crime.

Think about it: Given two qualified potential employees, a black man and a white woman, who do you think the average white employer would feel that he related to more?

And really, you're comparing slavery and race-based hatred with disenfranchisement. Come on. I don't really have to say much more about that, do I? Women were being employed at a much higher rate than black men even before the end of slavery, so they're the ones who have a head start.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
You can choose whether or not you're an atheist.
Like you can choose whether or not you believe that the world is round? Like you can choose whether or not you believe pi is exactly 3?

Explain.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
Thanks for that nice straw man argument.
You don't know what a straw man argument is. A Straw Man argument first makes it sound as if the opponent is saying something easy to disprove, and then (this is the important part) argues against the argument which is easier to disprove. Comparing your point to a backwards view is not straw man, it's insulting.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
As for your other arguments, I think they are good. I didn't know about that study you mentioned. How 'bout a link?

http://www.nathannewman.org/log/archives/001094.shtml
Yuka
QUOTE(Irysa @ Feb 7 2008, 07:36 AM) *

QUOTE(Yuka @ Feb 7 2008, 12:41 AM) *

I have met a lot more stupid girls than smart girls, therefore I doubt your claim.

The internet is not the majority of women.


Unlike you, I'm not homeschooled. I actually leave the internet at times.
Rhiannon
You're confusing Asaph with me. Being homeschooled doesn't mean you never go out.
Yuka
Asaph's homeschooled too; I thought you knew. :(
Rhiannon
Yes, and I've come to the conclusion from your comments in the channel that you're refusing to admit that you're wrong, refusing to even see my point.

Automatic win for me, I guess?
Yuka
You've already proven your point that normal homeschooled people do leave their homes frequently. I've already countered it and you bring up malls.

I'm certain far more people go to schools than malls, by the way.
Rhiannon
Apparently you don't know much about teenagers, and apparently you've never been to a mall.

Or maybe the stupid Mall of America is skewing everything.
Yuka
I know enough about teenagers, and I've been to enough malls to know I hate them.
Rhiannon
Sure it wasn't a little strip mall? I'm talking about real malls, here. Giant buildings with tons of shops and even more customers and employees. Schools honestly can't compete with malls.
Yuka
Yes, those big malls. And you'd be surprised.
Rhiannon
Unless you're talking about colleges/universities (in which case I'll kill you because those do not count in this situation) it must be the Mall of America skewing things. Or maybe it's the fault of the malls where you live instead of where I live. But there's not really any way to tell which it is.
Irysa
I'm seriously thinking you're right Rhia. Nobody here goes to a shopping mall for fun.

And besides, I've got about 10 years, give or take, of School on my side.
jcdietz03
I hardly ever go to the mall anymore. I go to real stores when I need clothes or shoes. For most other things, I use the internet.

Free shipping FTW.
slickdeals.net FTW.
Raijinili
Do I have to hound you again to get an answer out of you?
Ebe
All black schools are actually largely beneficial IMHO. I visited one once and despite the fact that the neighborhood was incredibly bad (they couldn't use the playground due to fighting gangs) the children were friendly, well mannered and intelligent. I went to an integrated school in the same area that was mostly black and the children literally jumped on their desks, choked each other and threw paper airplanes moments after the teacher left, this is not an exaggeration.

When all students in a school are of the same race, it reduces tensions about ones own differences and instead of seeing them as problematic (when your teachers are always telling you how you need extra help and attention due to your circumstances, while the other kids don't) they can instead take pride in what they are and feel driven to exceed.

Black children often feel like they are an out-group in settings, and that to be in an in-group they must resort to actions provided to them by pop culture, which seems to involve expensive tennis-shoes and diamond necklaces. However, if you can instead create an environment where they are inherently the in-group, then they can instead focus on success and progressive behaviors to further their own image of themselves.

This is why the Hitler Jungen was so successful, they WERE the in-group, the superiors, the betters. Because of this segregated, pride filled environment they excelled in physical training and education. Similar effects can be had on other segregated groups regardless of their race if handled properly.
jcdietz03
QUOTE(Raijinili @ Feb 9 2008, 12:36 AM) *
Just like how black people doing poorly in school doesn't make them inherently dumber than white people.
You can't just ignore data you don't agree with.
QUOTE
Asians doing better in math doesn't mean that they're inherently better in math.
It absolutely means that. If I had to hire a mathematician, I would hire an asian person over someone of another race for sure. I mean, I would do it if it weren't illegal.
QUOTE
Asian immigrant children are less likely to be independent, and more obedient, so they are more likely to do better in school.
OK, I agree with you here, but WHY is that the case. If it is genetics then asians are, in fact, better students than their peers of other races. If it's parenting then it's the fault of black and white parents for not beating their kids enough (that's another thread BTW). There were studies done on twins (I saw a discovery channel program on this). Even though raised apart, many pairs of twins had the same weight, liked the same kinds of clothes, answered interview questions the same way, and had chosen the same profession. It's likely that ability to learn in school has a heavy genetic factor, and that is why you see performance discrepancies between the races in school performance.

QUOTE
Bias against blacks is more significant than bias against women.
Yes, I agree with you on this. A more significant bias doesn't explain a lack of progress on achieving equality with whites. I will ask again, what is wrong with black people? I did not mean to imply that black people are not capable of achieving their dreams. It seems that too many black people focus on external factors than on internal ones. NAACP are a bunch of jerks, trying always to place the blame on everyone else for the problems of black people. If their focus was to help black people and families overcome their problems, I could support it. NPR reported that 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock. Is this the fault of whites? Certain people in the black community are trying to change the black culture for the better (Bill Cosby) while others (Ludacris) are doing their best to slide it further into the gutter.

QUOTE
Given two qualified potential employees, a black man and a white woman, who do you think the average white employer would feel that he related to more?
Yeah, I got it. Still, I am 27. Where I work we have primarily white, but we have 2 asians and 1 black in our department of 20 people. Notably though, our 4 managers are all white and we are getting a fourth white manager soon. I respect the work of our employees. Are #1 problem is obtaining the resumes of qualified people. We only want the most qualified folks to come work for us - we don't care what race they are.

QUOTE
QUOTE(jcdietz)
You can choose whether or not you're an atheist.
Like you can choose whether or not you believe that the world is round? Like you can choose whether or not you believe pi is exactly 3?
You mean you can't choose your religion?
QUOTE
QUOTE(jcdietz)
Thanks for that nice straw man argument.
You don't know what a straw man argument is.
Heh. Got a little confused there. Well, it was a nice insult. Keep them coming!
Raijinili
QUOTE(jcdietz)
You can't just ignore data you don't agree with.
I'm not ignoring it. However, you just basically ignored my analogies and explanations for the discrepancies, so I can't really say the same for you.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
It absolutely means that. If I had to hire a mathematician, I would hire an asian person over someone of another race for sure. I mean, I would do it if it weren't illegal.
You're an idiot.

Topic over.
Irysa
QUOTE
Even though raised apart, many pairs of twins had the same weight, liked the same kinds of clothes, answered interview questions the same way, and had chosen the same profession. It's likely that ability to learn in school has a heavy genetic factor, and that is why you see performance discrepancy

Most adopted twins aren't adopted by poor people

Most adoptions aren't by poor people
QUOTE
A more significant bias doesn't explain a lack of progress on achieving equality with whites.

Of course it does. Poor kids usually grow up to be poor. It doesn't help that there are people out there set on keeping them poor.
QUOTE
NAACP are a bunch of jerks, trying always to place the blame on everyone else for the problems of black people. If their focus was to help black people and families overcome their problems, I could support it.

Doesn't NAACP have scholarships? If not, there are many other organizations which give scholarships to black people
QUOTE
Certain people in the black community are trying to change the black culture for the better (Bill Cosby) while others (Ludacris) are doing their best to slide it further into the gutter.

You realise most of those people who are "trying to slide black culture into the gutter", were poor black people, right?
QUOTE
You mean you can't choose your religion?
You missed the point. I may as well say I can choose to believe you don't exist.

And atheism isn't a belief, it's a lack of belief.
Ebe
Atheism has to be a belief because it states a specific belief in the nonexistence in the divine.

To simply have a lack of belief would be to be agnostic.

Believing that there is nothing outside of the profane requires faith, faith is a form of belief. You can't prove that God does not exist, in the same way that you can't prove that there isn't a magical invisible bunny on your head, you can say that you do not personally know of their existence, but to specify that your opinion is that they in fact do not exist is a statement made without evidence, and is therefore a belief.
Raijinili
Atheism isn't a religion. It's still a belief system, consisting of one belief.

However, you don't need faith to have a belief, especially if you don't understand it. For example, do you have it on faith that 1+1=1+1?
Ebe
While his views were a little screwy IMHO, Balzac addressed the belief in numbers in his book Seraphita.

If we define the numbers as specific units, then this could be true. However we must believe that two objects can be exactly similar, otherwise the addition of two objects will not equal the addition of another two objects, even if this difference is only in terms of a perfect quark (should such a thing exist.) If we are to say that these are not real, existing objects but theoretical units, then of course it requires faith to believe that these imagined concepts are equivocal to one another, we cannot test them to confirm even empirical evidence, which is non-the-less vulnerable to misinterpretation by the senses as we humans possess them. As a result, yes, it requires faith to say that 1+1=1+1.
Raijinili
Empirical evidence requires more faith than theoretical values do.

You know why I believe that 1+1=1+1? Because it's part of the definition of the equal sign. I say that the of your skin is now called "skin-color". I ask you what color is your skin. How much faith does it take for you to tell me "skin-colored"?

On the other hand, if I ask you for the color of my skin, then it's clearly not going to be "skin-color" without a leap of faith.

The point is, not everything requires faith.
Ebe
But even that assumes color would be inherent to your skin as opposed to an optical illusion created by your brain in response to light rebounding off of pigments contained within your skin. I mean, without light, everything is just darkness right? A lack of color. Hence your skin could be without color, but have the ability to deflect light, and this light sparks a mental reaction that is perceived as color.

To believe that the skin itself has color, even when in total darkness, is once again a matter of faith.

The fact that it is part of the definition of an equal sign is using somewhat skewed logic as you are assuming that something such as the equal sign can possibly exist. It's like saying that you know Omnipotence is not only possible but existent because Islamic Cosmology clearly states the existence of Falak the Omnipotent serpent. Yet this only works if you already grant that Falak is indeed real.
Raijinili
QUOTE(Ebe)
But even that assumes color would be inherent to your skin
No, wiseguy, it doesn't. I said that "skin-color" is the color of your skin, not the color you perceive it to be.
QUOTE(Ebe)
The fact that it is part of the definition of an equal sign is using somewhat skewed logic as you are assuming that something such as the equal sign can possibly exist. It's like saying that you know Omnipotence is not only possible but existent because Islamic Cosmology clearly states the existence of Falak the Omnipotent serpent. Yet this only works if you already grant that Falak is indeed real.
The existence of the equal sign is of no matter. The fact that we even have the equal sign in the middle of the equation only says, "Given this definition of the equal sign, is the statement true?" If the equal sign is impossible, that only makes the statement true.
Ebe
All I'm saying is that these only work if we accept their premise.

For skin to have skin color, color must exist. If color does not exist, there is no "skin color."

For us to accept that the equal sign is valid, we must accept math. Current paradoxes within the math field show that, if nothing else, algebra requires some fine-tuning. Since math is not absolute, it is possible that the equal sign is invalid, and thus that the entire statement is false.

Now, for the record, I have a reasonable amount of faith that 1+1=1+1, my only point is that, unless one is omniscient, it is impossible to have a belief in anything outside of faith in that thing, as there will otherwise be unknown variables that make all statements impossible to confirm without doubt.

But yes, if we take on faith that the definition of an equal sign is true, then the statement is true.
jcdietz03
QUOTE
You realise most of those people who are "trying to slide black culture into the gutter", were poor black people, right?
I didn't realize that, but it doesn't matter. They are enouraging bad behavior - wrong no matter who you are. It's not like some gray area or anything - this behavior they're advocating is clearly bad.

By using words like "bitches & hos" they are enouraging sex at a young age.
Raij|Away
That's retarded, first of all. It's hard to even respond to that, because anyone who can say that using words like "bitches and hos" makes people have sex at young ages is so unreasonable that it would be hard for one to convince them of anything.

Second of all, are you trying to say that they're doing these bad things because they're black? You probably know nothing of disco and rock and roll, which were popular among white people and which encouraged sex and drugs. (Ever hear of "Sex, drugs, and rock & roll"?)

So not only are you retarded, you're also ignorant.
Ebe
And while we're on the subject, while black people are more likely to deal drugs, white people are more likely to buy/use drugs. Does that mean that whites are inherently junkies? Born with a junkie gene maybe? Oh wait, more black people still get busted for drug crimes, and wait, former cops have admitted training recruits to "Pull over blacks and students for drug searches."

Which of course, at least as far as the US and UK are concerned, will give them an unreasonably long jail sentence for having something less damaging then nutmeg.
Rhiannon
HEY LET'S FLAME A BIT LESS RAI

QUOTE
By using words like "bitches & hos" they are enouraging sex at a young age.

I wasn't encouraged to have sex at a young age by listening to Mindless Self Indulgence songs (go look up the lyrics to a few songs, and I'm sure you'll understand that they're far worse than people like Ludacris) when I was like ten years old.

Oh wait, the lead singer isn't black so it's okay. GUESS MY POINT IS MOOT NOW LOL
Ebe
Why would black music be encouraging this? Rich WASPs listen to hip hop music too.

On the other hand, studies have shown a link between poverty and sex. More money = less love making.
jcdietz03
By singing about the bitches & hos, they are glorifying the lifestyle. Ex.: "I got my bitch's and hos" - The song lyrics indicate that this means that having a harem of women is a good thing. In actuality, it is not a good thing. Not for the men or for the women.

For videogame violence, the violence depicted is clearly a fantasy. No way would kids mercilessly kill other kids or adults (as they do in videogames). Most kids do not have access to weapons. With the song, it's not clear that it is a fantasy.

If the problem is that black people are poor, then why not just give black people money? That will solve the problem [/sarcasm] Seriously, what can be done to correct the disparity? I don't think anything. People who are black have suggested the solution above (seriously) and it was rejected by all who considered it. A good solution would be to aggressively prosecute racial discrimination. The problem with that is that racial discrimination is very hard to prove.

They try very hard in school to teach equality, especially equality of race. But everything people see outside of school suggests otherwise. People don't learn about race relations in school. They learn by interacting with members of that race. Depending on their experiences, they form a negative or positive opinion of people of each race. Many people form similar opinions about members of the various races, called stereotypes. Those stereotypes evolved for a reason: because enough people had the experiences described in the stereotype.
Ex: Black people are good sprinters.
Ex: Black people are good basketball players.
Stereotypes describe people of a given race very well generally. That is why they are so hard to defeat.

It's only natural for people to divide things into categories. I don't know exactly what that's called, but categorization is part of human nature. It helps us (simply) understand things that are complicated, and it helps us remember more. By teaching "race equality" you are running counter to human nature. Race relations got the way the are now for a reason. I don't think teaching race equality is a bad thing, but King's dream can never be realized for the simple reason that we are all humans, and we want to divide people into categories, as opposed to viewing all people as "raceless" as King imagines.
Ebe
Schools are racist in their own way by constantly driving home the point that the groups are different, yet equal. No one likes a group who is different, or if they do it is in a patronizing, "Wow you are diverse and special" kind of way. The only way racism ever goes away is by refusing to distinguish members of that race from others, a clear example in the last hundred some years is the Irish American.

When Irish immigrants first began coming enmasse to the United States, they were looked down upon and forced to set up living conditions in squalid ghettos. The Irish Mafia formed as a method for the Irish to be able to make a living. The term "red headed step child" is a good example of the disdain felt by average protestant America at their new Catholic neighbors (you'll remember that Catholics are one of the things the KKK wants to chase out of America.) But something happened, at some point, the Irish became average Americans. On resumes, when asking for race, one of the choices is not "Celtic." Due to being lumped into "White" subgroup, Irish Americans are now extremely unlikely to experience prejudice, the drunken Leprechauns seen on St. Patrick's day are no longer associated as a racist stereotype. Racism was conquered by assimilation, the only thing I know of that has ever defeated racism.

In the case of the USA, as long as the term "African American" exists, racism will persist, because there is a creation of a second group. On the other hand, if the term "American" replaces "African American," then it is possible for equality to be founded.
Raijinili
QUOTE(Ebe)
For skin to have skin color, color must exist. If color does not exist, there is no "skin color."
Then "your skin color" can be called anything you want, and how can anyone prove you wrong? In particular, it can still be called "skin color".
QUOTE(Ebe)
For us to accept that the equal sign is valid, we must accept math.
For me to accept that you are correct, I must assume that logic makes sense.

That's the problem with... bleh, I forgot the name. Full skepticism. How can you know that you can't know something if you deny being able to know anything for sure?

It doesn't take faith if you don't question it. Unless you think there's a possibility that 1 doesn't equal 1, there's no reason to need faith in it.
QUOTE(Ebe)
Current paradoxes within the math field show that, if nothing else, algebra requires some fine-tuning.
Paradoxes aren't contradictions.

Besides, what paradoxes do you know in simple arithmetic?
QUOTE(Ebe)
Since math is not absolute, it is possible that the equal sign is invalid
Good job, you have no idea what you're talking about. See above.
QUOTE(Ebe)
my only point is that, unless one is omniscient, it is impossible to have a belief in anything outside of faith in that thing
And how would you know that you're omniscient?
QUOTE(Ebe)
By singing about the bitches & hos, they are glorifying the lifestyle. Ex.: "I got my bitch's and hos" - The song lyrics indicate that this means that having a harem of women is a good thing. In actuality, it is not a good thing. Not for the men or for the women.
In poor countries where there isn't such music, people have sex at a young age. It's not about music, it's about, once again, not learning the importance of an education, whether from your parents or from your educators, and not knowing better than to live in the now.

So once again, it comes back to poverty and the schools.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
For videogame violence, the violence depicted is clearly a fantasy. No way would kids mercilessly kill other kids or adults (as they do in videogames). Most kids do not have access to weapons.
Oh, that brings up a point. Most serial killers are white, and most mass school shooters are white people who get legal guns from their parents. White people are thus inclined to murder, despite being statisticly more wealthy. So what the hell is wrong with white people?
QUOTE(jcdietz)
People who are black have suggested the solution above (seriously) and it was rejected by all who considered it.
Good job, you make black people sound greedy as well.

1) White people also suggest it.
2) Not "all who considered it". Rather, the people who had money, who are again, rich white men.

In fact, one of the promises that they made to the freed slaves was property. Ever heard of "40 acres and a mule"? If this had been done back then, it would've been paid for by seizing property of the slave owners. However, it would've meant that the freed slaves would not have to start from the very bottom of the social and economic pyramid, which white people didn't have to do as a group in America.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
A good solution would be to aggressively prosecute racial discrimination. The problem with that is that racial discrimination is very hard to prove.
1) Then that's not a good solution. At all.
2) Affirmative action is meant to prevent racial discrimination, as well. But you didn't like that idea. So basically, you would rather people give up?
QUOTE(jcdietz)
Stereotypes describe people of a given race very well generally. That is why they are so hard to defeat.
I disagree. You just ignore me when I defeat them.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
I don't think teaching race equality is a bad thing, but King's dream can never be realized for the simple reason that we are all humans, and we want to divide people into categories, as opposed to viewing all people as "raceless" as King imagines.
So why is it that people like you are the exact reason we can't have nice things?
jcdietz03
QUOTE(Raijinili @ Feb 25 2008, 02:22 AM) *


QUOTE(jcdietz)
People who are black have suggested the solution above (seriously) and it was rejected by all who considered it. (I am referring to a "Reparations" proposal, one that would give $$ to people who are descendants of slaves.)
Good job, you make black people sound greedy as well.

1) White people also suggest it.
2) Not "all who considered it". Rather, the people who had money, who are again, rich white men.
#1) Really? This seems like the sort of thing that would be suggested by black people. I'm surprised white people also suggested such a plan.

#2) OK, so you're suggesting [white] congresspeople didn't consider the proposal because they are biased. So consider the proposal yourself. Is it a good idea? Why??
Ask a random 100 black people, "If you received $1000 today, what would you do with the money?"
Next experiment: Give 100 random black people $1000 in a special account, so it's possible for the researcher to track how the money is spent. Observe how they spend the money.

My guess is, it would be hard for me to see a link between a better life for black people as a whole and what they spent their money on. I have a feeling this is why people in congress didn't like it.

My college economics professor told me a story once. Poor people get food stamps. Why don't they just give cash to poor people? It costs the government more to print and distribute the food stamps and reimburse the grocery stores than if they had just a straight cash "food stamp" system. So why does the government hand out food stamps instead of handing out cash?

The answer is that politicians are uncomfortable with the idea that a government welfare program intended to provide food might be used for unscrupulous things such as drugs. This is why, despite the cost, the government went with the food stamp program. The proposed reparations program is the same way. There are numerous ways for black kids to get grants and favorable loans for college, which may end up improving their life. Giving out "Reparations" payments wouldn't solve anything, methinks.
Raijinili
QUOTE(jcdietz)
Really? This seems like the sort of thing that would be suggested by black people. I'm surprised white people also suggested such a plan.
Because you think of black people as greedy and selfish, right? Or is it that they're stupid enough to suggest this?
QUOTE(jcdietz)
OK, so you're suggesting [white] congresspeople didn't consider the proposal because they are biased. So consider the proposal yourself. Is it a good idea? Why??
As scholarship money, perhaps. In the form of money for funding their schools, perhaps. I always believed that education is where we should start when we want to equalize.

Regardless, the only reason you're bringing this up is to insult the majority of blacks based on a minority viewpoint. Let me repeat. NOT A LOT OF BLACK PEOPLE SERIOUSLY THINK THAT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO JUST GIVE BLACK PEOPLE MONEY.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
Next experiment: Give 100 random black people $1000 in a special account, so it's possible for the researcher to track how the money is spent. Observe how they spend the money.
See, the problem is, you think that they're going to spend their money on drugs and alcohol, and maybe lottery tickets. You think that a significant proportion of black people are just like the stereotypical black junkie. You're part of the problem.

I'd say many of them would buy food, perhaps a car to get to work, maybe even put it into a bank account. Maybe a computer, to keep up with the times. If they're middle class, then perhaps a video game system and some games for their kids.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
My guess is, it would be hard for me to see a link between a better life for black people as a whole and what they spent their money on. I have a feeling this is why people in congress didn't like it.
I agree with you. It had nothing to do with the fact that IT WOULD COST A LOT OF MONEY THAT WOULD HAVE TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE.

So it has nothing to do with the fact that a lot of the black Americans don't have slave blood and can take advantage of the system. It has nothing to do with the fact that poor blacks can't prove that they had slave ancestors, crippling any possibility of a "proof" system.
QUOTE(jcdietz)
There are numerous ways for black kids to get grants and favorable loans for college, which may end up improving their life.
That's not enough. There's still a core problem at the elementary school level that can't be solved with money at the college level.

It also costs a lot less to have private organizations give out a little money than to have the government give every black person a bunch of money.
Ebe
Woah woah woah. Why shouldn't we question 1 = 1? Can this be tested? In the real world, if I take one car, and then compare it to another car, even of the same model, they will be different. The weight will differ by some puny amount, or one will have a microscopic scratch where the other doesn't, etc.

It IS POSSIBLE that there could be a situation where 1 was found to equal 1. But I have never known such a result to ever have been found. Assuming I am correct in this lack of evidence, there is NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS for the existence of the mathematical principle 1 = 1, because no thing is equal to another thing.

Now you said that this doesn't matter if we don't question it. Of course we can say two onions are the same as eachother, or perhaps two cats seem exactly the same because you don't care. But the owners of the cats may care about the personalities, markings and breeding of their cats. Because of this, these owners, who have more knowledge than you do about the cats, know the cats are in fact, not equal. To believe they are, if not a matter of faith, is simply laziness and unwillingness to form a belief, but even this can be considered "Unquestioning Faith" as opposed to "Tested Faith."

But some of this is also faith in other factors. If I ask for five onions, and I am given five rotten onions, I will be angry. I had a certain level of faith in the individual I was communicating with that they would understand that I wanted onions in their prime on which to feed. However I never actually gave them this information. It was so far from my mind, I was so grounded in my faith, that I never questioned the premise that they would give me crisp, ripe onions. This can be described as "Blind Faith," the act of believing in something although there is no reason to assume this to be the case, and where in fact giving the matter thought would readily raise obvious alternatives.

You say there are no paradoxes within basic math, but thats like saying we know Orcs were destroyed during the war of the Rings because we read that in a book. You are making conclusions based on premises given to you by the math book. The math book does not explain WHY 1 = 1. It simply tells you that this is in fact, the case. As everyone around you accepts this as fact, it is natural that you will as well. You have been raised in a scenario where no one questions the validity of 1 = 1, despite the fact that it has never been scientifically proven. Because of this you enter into a state of "Blind Faith," in the same way as someone may accept that Jesus is their savior, despite never having studied theology nor having reached personal revelation.

EDIT: Oh, and as for mistakes with basic math, basic math tells us that .99999999-repeating 9 is = 1. So now an infinite .9 is = 1. Despite the fact that they're not the same? UH OH.

EDIT EDIT: I looked for some. Lets look at this
a = b
a(squared) = ab
a(squared) - b(squared) = ab - a(squared)
(a - b) (a + b) = b (a - b)
(a + b) = b
Since a = b we can now...
(b + b) = b
2b = b
2 = 1

AND THERE YOU HAVE IT. Using only multiplication, division subtraction and addition, I have made a mathematical proof that 1 = 2. DO YOU BELIEVE 1 = 2?
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