Lord Ryo
Feb 20 2007, 07:25 AM
You all know Marietta right, the extremely powerful and extremely hot arch angel? While playing her the other day it just dawned on me that her card's power is 666. I thought at first that she was given a weak card so that you don't loose all of your morale in one hit making her impossible to beat. Although true, why the number 666? Maybe she's more than just an angel, or in that case, not an angel at all... *hmm...*
Feral Phoenix
Feb 20 2007, 01:16 PM
Angel or not, Marietta just plain ticks me off. I've hated her since Riviera and after my first try at getting Ending C, I've hated her even more. (The first time I tried, she killed Roswell, I went homicidal, and fried her the second time I tried. Didn't lose a single unit.)
I think the 666 value was just to keep you from getting massacred too badly if you fight her--I don't know if 666 has the same stigma in Japan.
Dr Strum
Feb 20 2007, 01:20 PM
How have you known about Marietta since Riviera?
And 666 is a religious symbol, not national, so of course it shares the same "stigma." Which is probably why it appears in so many games.
Raijinili
Feb 20 2007, 01:58 PM
...
The Japanese just think it's cool. Nothing else.
Dr Strum
Feb 20 2007, 01:59 PM
The Japanese think everything from western culture is cool.
Raijinili
Feb 20 2007, 02:07 PM
And vice versa.
Suzu Fujibayashi
Feb 20 2007, 05:48 PM
666 isn't a bad number in Japan so... Pure coincidence maybe. Or perhaps they just knew it would be translated and tossed in 666 so anyone whose religious will see an Angel with a card POW of 666 and freak out... <.<
@Sturm: I believe Feral is merely stating that Marietta looks a lot like the Archangel. But I doubt they are the same person since, Marietta has bewbs and the Archangel lacks any.
Feral Phoenix
Feb 20 2007, 06:02 PM
Marietta IS the Archangel, Suzu. Her character designer, Tobe-sama, even points that out in the Riviera art guide (she talks about how she worked on Marietta in YU in her notes on the Archangel's CG). I just thought she was really annoying in Riviera and got to hate her in YU.
Dr Strum
Feb 20 2007, 06:20 PM
... No, she said she modified the look of the Archangel in the RiviPSP CG to more fit that of the Archangel in Yggdra Union. Although, even if Sunaho Tobe said it was, it doesn't mean squat unless Shinichi Ito says the same thing. Which he hasn't, at least as far as I know.
Yuka
Feb 20 2007, 07:22 PM
As far as I'm concerned, and I do recall something else coming up like this once before, but isn't saying the final boss's name IN THE TITLE OF A THREAD a spoiler within itself?
Back on topic, what'd I like to see, if Feral CLAIMS that she's right and that Marietta is the same Archangel from Riviera, then HOW does Marietta fit into both storylines?
This is, of course, asking you to make up something logical and not something that involves butchering both storylines to meet your needs.
Suzu Fujibayashi
Feb 20 2007, 08:05 PM
You could just say...
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
That Yggdra's army was meant to start Ragnarok and become demons... But that seems... Unusual. Although the victor's write the history so 'humans' could've become 'demons. I mean. Riviera has no humans ya know?
But I'm merely speculating.
Dr Strum
Feb 20 2007, 09:55 PM
QUOTE(Sauce XIV @ Feb 20 2007, 01:22 PM)
As far as I'm concerned, and I do recall something else coming up like this once before, but isn't saying the final boss's name IN THE TITLE OF A THREAD a spoiler within itself?
It has come up before, and, like I said before, Marietta's name means nothing canonically. Her class, her species, however, does.
QUOTE
Back on topic, what'd I like to see, if Feral CLAIMS that she's right and that Marietta is the same Archangel from Riviera, then HOW does Marietta fit into both storylines?
She doesn't. If she was the Archangel from Riviera, then that not only further fucks up Riviera's already convoluted storyline, but it fucks up YU's, too.
Yuka
Feb 21 2007, 01:11 AM
QUOTE(Fujibayashi Suzu @ Feb 20 2007, 03:05 PM)
You could just say...
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
That Yggdra's army was meant to start Ragnarok and become demons... But that seems... Unusual. Although the victor's write the history so 'humans' could've become 'demons. I mean. Riviera has no humans ya know?
But I'm merely speculating.
The human equivalent in Riviera are the sprites, you know.
Suzu Fujibayashi
Feb 21 2007, 02:29 AM
I suppose. But they are different... But I'm not trying to say Marietta = Archangel, just because they looked nearly identical isn't proof. Since Nessiah's clothes look a lot like Hector's, but they aren't related...
I was merely stating my own personal view, not passing it on as fact.
Ruby Eyes Yuan
Feb 21 2007, 07:02 AM
I'm considering putting my speculation on the matter in a one-shot I MIGHT write. Although, I think my explanation is even more convoluted than anything else. I'm putting it down as a spoiler here, mostly because it will spoil part of my intended story. Tell me to take down the "spoiler" status if you think it's unnecessary.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
I believe somewhere in Riviera, it mentions there are multiple "fallen" angels that resided in Tetyth because they sought greed and power. I speculate that one of those angels managed to survive and Become THE Archangel in Riviera. It's possible that the power of the Archangel is either blessed upon any other Angel like the "Grim Angel" Status, or could be obtained through embracing the power of sin, which the one in Tetyh seemed to do. Because of this, it's possible Marietta and the one in Riviera might be Twin Sisters, sort of like Aegina and Luciana are . (See, I told you my take is convoluted.) In my story, Marietta's Twin Sister slays her "Good" counterpart out of jealousy for her rank, is condemned along with the rest of the Angels, and obtains "Archangel" Status by embracing her personal sin of murder.
Rune_Ocarina
Feb 21 2007, 07:58 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if someone is able to shoot this down, but this could be the extent of my imagination.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
First of all, the island that rose to the heavens could be considered as Riviera. Even though it was smaller in YU when you were on it - but use your imagination here.
Ok, now, going with the 'bad' ending in YU, Marietta was supposedly killed by Yggdra and her army and Ragnarok had begun. The gods, startled by the strength of the Royal Army, consider them demons - for their inhuman ability to challenge the gods.
The war rages on, with no side seeing victory nearby in the future. This leads to the Gods creation of the Grim Angels - leading to the Gods destruction and their hand-down of power to the Seven Magi (let's consider them as a council before the Gods' deaths) - but even then, the Grim Angels alone are not able to fully turn the tide of the war. They are, however, able to push the Royal Army back to the island, back on Riviera, and keep the fight there.
The Seven Magi, seeing this as their only opportunity, send Riviera back down to Earth, yet not all the way.
The island, now in the borderline of heaven and Earth is the new battleground for the bloody Ragnarok. The Grim Angels are successful, and finally deal a heavy blow to the Royal Army. Though it is not enough for the Seven Magi, as they foolishly (insert powerful attack - something like an Ankh for example -) and destroy every living creature: Grim Angels and Royal Army alike on the island of Riviera.
Devastated by the amount of damage the war had cost, the Seven Magi wished to learn from the Gods mistake, and hope to prevent something like this would never happen again. So as their first act of supremacy, the Magi (and this is where it gets even crazier) destroy every living being on Earth and create the Sprites - the human equivalents - on Riviera. This way, the Magi could monitor the Sprites and form them into being the Gods before them had intentionally wanted before reforming Earth. Yet something had been miscalculated. The essence of the dead Grim Angels (forgot what they were called >.<) had seeped into the soils of Riviera. The first several hundred years go by unnoticed, but soon, changes begin to occur. Sprites are beginning to deform from random contacts of the essences of the Grim Angels that had fused to the floating island.
The rise of demons...
This goes unnoticed by the angels up in Heaven.
Now Hades, after the destruction of the humans on Earth, soon discovers Riviera, and make his home deep within the floating isle, shielded by the mystical powers of the deceased Grim Angels, the Magi don't suspect a thing. Hades is able to control the newly formed demons by creating Greater Demons - Accursed. This is where the revival of Marietta comes to play, as she was killed on the island. Though still controlled by Hades, she still keeps her faith by declaring she is a fallen angel, yet has no power to stand up against the powerful Hades and (let's just guess she's controlled like a puppet.)
I guess you could call that a sad ending in YU terms. I don't remember how everything happened word for word, so pick it apart as harshly as you want to. >.<
But you know what...
/bubble
/hearth
Hahahahaha!!
Dr Strum
Feb 21 2007, 01:21 PM
QUOTE
it mentions there are multiple "fallen" angels that resided in Tetyth because they sought greed and power.
It didn't say why the Angels of Tetyth were expelled, but they are the founders of Tetyth. All those statues that the girls accuse Ein of feeling up are of them.
QUOTE
I speculate that one of those angels managed to survive and Become THE Archangel in Riviera.
You can't become an Archangel if you're a Fallen Angel.
QUOTE
Marietta's Twin Sister slays her "Good" counterpart out of jealousy for her rank, is condemned along with the rest of the Angels, and obtains "Archangel" Status by embracing her personal sin of murder.
... Even if that weren't insane, that wouldn't explain how she became a (potentially metaphorical) child of Hades with the ability to spawn demons.
QUOTE
The war rages on, with no side seeing victory nearby in the future.
Actually, it says the God's created the Grim Angels out of fear of losing. A last ditch effort.
After a rather thoughtful entrance, your argument descends in to drivel however, especially since you forget the important fact that the Magi were instated following the death of the Gods, to rule in their stead; Hades did not CHOOSE Parveeju as his home, he was imprisoned there; and that's not how it could have worked with Marietta since the Riviera Archangel was banished from Asgard.
Also, you all seem to forget that demons and humans are the same thing in (at least) the Riviera universe.
Rune_Ocarina
Feb 21 2007, 04:10 PM
I knew I'd forget something =P
Oh well, at least I tried.
Dr Strum
Feb 21 2007, 04:17 PM
Hey, you still got the part of Ancardia's suspended state being reminiscent of Riviera's. I never thought of that until you brought it up.
Ruby Eyes Yuan
Feb 22 2007, 03:38 AM
QUOTE(Dr Sturm @ Feb 21 2007, 05:21 AM)
After a rather thoughtful entrance, your argument descends in to drivel however, especially since you forget the important fact that the Magi were instated following the death of the Gods, to rule in their stead; Hades did not CHOOSE Parveeju as his home, he was imprisoned there; and that's not how it could have worked with Marietta since the Riviera Archangel was banished from Asgard.
Also, you all seem to forget that demons and humans are the same thing in (at least) the Riviera universe.
Well, I did say my theories were crap to begin with, didn't I?
I'm still considering going on with the fic when I have the time, however. I at least hope the story doesn't end up sucking badly...
Dr Strum
Feb 22 2007, 03:50 AM
Try to pay attention to the quotes. They keep the context.
Raijinili
Feb 22 2007, 04:15 AM
It's not a coincidence. They know that 666 means something in the western world. They might not know what it means, but it's foreign => exotic => cool.
Feral Phoenix
Feb 22 2007, 03:43 PM
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
You know, just because Ending C has Yggdra and co. starting Ragnarok doesn't mean that it's THE Ragnarok we see in Riviera. My personal theory is that YU would end in the "canonical" A ending, but that Ragnarok would eventually be started by demons some time afterwards (from hundreds to thousands of years, we don't know). Marietta, the young angel we see in YU, would be kicked out of Asgard at around this time.
Asgard, Utgard, and Heaven's Gate are all floating islands--Ancardia was originally a floating island but was expelled to Midgard (the human world) as we notice.
Midgard is where the humans live; my guess is that after Ragnarok, the Sprites (such as the Undines we see in YU) got moved to Utgard/Riviera to avoid conflict with humans. Remember, the Sprites were enslaved by the demons and fought for them in Ragnarok.
You can see this stuff a lot more coherently in The Tainted, where the story of YU gets referenced a few times by Celina, but yeah. Sorry if that made no sense.
Basically I think YU and Riviera take place in the same universe, but different places and different eras. 'Cause there are just WAY too many Riviera references in YU, from Banangos and "kokori no mi" (translated in YU as "Kokorinut" while it's "Applecot" in Riviera) to Mjollnir (which they say is a Diviner) to Nessiah's design (you just know that it ain't coincidental that he looks so much like the Magi...) and Marietta's cameo at the end, for them to be just references.
And since we don't know the life span of angels, the Marietta we see in YU could easily be the same archangel in Riviera or some relation of hers.
Dr Strum
Feb 22 2007, 03:57 PM
QUOTE
You know, just because Ending C has Yggdra and co. starting Ragnarok doesn't mean that it's THE Ragnarok we see in Riviera.
Oh wow. Never thought I'd hear that from
you.
QUOTE
but that Ragnarok would eventually be started by demons some time afterwards (from hundreds to thousands of years, we don't know).
How convenient.
QUOTE
Ancardia was originally a floating island but was expelled to Midgard (the human world) as we notice.
Cite your source. Now.
QUOTE
Basically I think YU and Riviera take place in the same universe, but different places and different eras.
How convenient.
QUOTE
'Cause there are just WAY too many Riviera references in YU, from Banangos and "kokori no mi" (translated in YU as "Kokorinut" while it's "Applecot" in Riviera) to Mjollnir (which they say is a Diviner)
OMG All the Final Fantasy's must be related too! They all have Chocobos, the same spell names and ultra powerful equipment, HOLY CRAP FF8
IS A SEQUEL TO FF7!
QUOTE
Nessiah's design (you just know that it ain't coincidental that he looks so much like the Magi...)
I believe it is. I thought he actually looked a bit more like a ghost, his robe being tattered and goofy looking, while the Magi's look very ceremonial.
QUOTE
Marietta's cameo at the end
Cameo? You say that as if she appeared in another game. Which she didn't.
Lord Ryo
Feb 23 2007, 07:23 AM
That would be too cool if the Arch Angel from Riviera was the same in Yggdra, I just love that kind of stuff. I'm not going to get into an explanation on how, but I'd guess they're suppose to be the same. They look identical and even thou she wasn't named in Riviera, she was called the Arch Angel, as Marietta is in YU.
Lord Ryo
Feb 23 2007, 07:41 AM
QUOTE
It has come up before, and, like I said before, Marietta's name means nothing canonically.
I just noticed I have a warning against me Sturm. Would this be because I didn't mark spoilers in the topic title? *Can't think of another reason why* And if so, you said yourself that the mentioning of her name doesn't mean anything, so what happened?
But perhaps I misunderstood your comment, you did however use the word canonically in error. So what did you mean?
Dr Strum
Feb 23 2007, 01:23 PM
QUOTE
she was called the Arch Angel, as Marietta is in YU.
Archangel is a class of angel. Unless you're of the presupposition that there is only one. In that case, I guess Ein is the only Grim Angel. Fia the only sprite...
QUOTE
Would this be because I didn't mark spoilers in the topic title?
Partly that, partly because you had semi-spoilers in the topic title.
QUOTE
But perhaps I misunderstood your comment, you did however use the word canonically in error.
No, I did not use it in error. You're just trying to hard.
Yuka
Feb 23 2007, 06:38 PM
QUOTE(Dr Sturm @ Feb 23 2007, 08:23 AM)
Fia the only sprite...
Which of course couldn't be right, as there's Lina and Cierra. I'm not so sure if the Arcs are also Sprites or not, though.
QUOTE
QUOTE
But perhaps I misunderstood your comment, you did however use the word canonically in error.
No, I did not use it in error. You're just trying to hard.
Replace canonically with story-wise, and you get the same message.
Atleast, I think that's the case. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Dr Strum
Feb 23 2007, 07:17 PM
QUOTE
I'm not so sure if the Arcs are also Sprites or not, though.
Arcs are a race of sprites, like the Cefiro.
Yuka
Feb 23 2007, 08:04 PM
QUOTE(Dr Sturm @ Feb 23 2007, 02:17 PM)
QUOTE
I'm not so sure if the Arcs are also Sprites or not, though.
Arcs are a race of sprites, like the Cefiro.
My point still stands, however.
Xel
Feb 24 2007, 10:02 PM
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
Marietta is a Fallen Angel?
Yuka
Feb 24 2007, 10:06 PM
No, we're trying to show that Marietta is not the same Archangel from Riviera.
Dr Strum
Feb 24 2007, 10:14 PM
QUOTE
Marietta is a Fallen Angel?
Angel Fallen is noun then verb. Fallen Angel is adjective then noun. A Fallen Angel is an Angel that has rebelled, or strayed from its path. An Angel Fallen is an Angel that has been struck down; killed.
Xel
Feb 24 2007, 11:38 PM
I see. Sorry, I'm from Brazil and I'm not very good at english... I thought that Angel Fallen was a typo.
Dr Strum
Feb 24 2007, 11:49 PM
Well, in the Japanese version it said "Lost An Angel." <_<
Lord Ryo
Feb 25 2007, 03:32 AM
QUOTE(Dr Sturm @ Feb 23 2007, 01:23 PM)
QUOTE
Would this be because I didn't mark spoilers in the topic title?
Partly that, partly because you had semi-spoilers in the topic title.
Very well then, I guess I should pay more attention in the near future, forgive me.
QUOTE
No, I did not use it in error. You're just trying to hard.
Trying too hard for what? I know what the word means.
Dr Strum
Feb 25 2007, 03:38 AM
You're trying too hard to find fault in me, and, in doing so, making yourself look stupid.
Lord Ryo
Feb 25 2007, 03:49 AM
No, I was unsure about what you were trying to say because you misused a word. I was looking for an answer, an answer I need to be able to understand, that's all.
Oh, and sturm, there are plenty of other members on this board, try to find someone else to blame your mistakes on.
Dr Strum
Feb 25 2007, 04:04 AM
QUOTE
No, I was unsure about what you were trying to say because you misused a word. I was looking for an answer, an answer I need to be able to understand, that's all.
I did not misuse the word. Nor have you given any evidence that I did beyond your accusations.
QUOTE
Oh, and sturm, there are plenty of other members on this board, try to find someone else to blame your mistakes on.
When have I ever blamed my mistakes on you? Or, more arrogantly, when have I ever made a mistake?
Raijinili
Feb 25 2007, 04:06 AM
Not even Americans who speak English all their lives know English well. For example, "fallen" is not a verb.
Dr Strum
Feb 25 2007, 04:07 AM
A participle is close enough to a verb. :(
Raijinili
Feb 25 2007, 04:08 AM
But the point is, because they're using it as a fake verb, they want to make a connection to "Fallen Angel".
Dr Strum
Feb 25 2007, 04:12 AM
That's a load of crap and you know it.
Lord Ryo
Feb 25 2007, 04:22 AM
QUOTE
I did not misuse the word. Nor have you given any evidence that I did beyond your accusations.
Well whatever you meant by the use of that word I was unable to understand. Therefore I was unable tp properly respond yo your post. Try thinking before posting.
QUOTE
When have I ever blamed my mistakes on you? Or, more arrogantly, when have I ever made a mistake?
What are you talking about? You're a walking mistake who just so happens to know how to use a computer. In addition, everytime you make a mistake you chalk it up as me "baiting" or not knowing anything. Surely you can come up with a better excuse than that, or better yet, just admit when you're wrong.
Dr Strum
Feb 25 2007, 04:29 AM
QUOTE
Well whatever you meant by the use of that word I was unable to understand. Therefore I was unable tp properly respond yo your post. Try thinking before posting.
It's beyond my ability to mind-read; to be expected to tailor my post so that everyone would know what I'm saying is an outrageous demand, a very selfish one.
QUOTE
In addition, everytime you make a mistake you chalk it up as me "baiting" or not knowing anything.
Surely you can cite an instance, or just admit you're wrong.
Rhiannon
Feb 25 2007, 04:33 AM
Calling someone a "walking mistake" is an insult. Common sense should tell you that is against the rules. Oh, and just because other people do it, doesn't mean it's okay for you to do it.
Calm down, because if you do it again, you're probably going to get warned for it.
Lord Ryo
Feb 25 2007, 05:10 AM
QUOTE
It's beyond my ability to mind-read; to be expected to tailor my post so that everyone would know what I'm saying is an outrageous demand, a very selfish one.
It's understandable for one to be unable to mind read. And as for an outrageous and selfish "demand" as you may call it, try looking at it as simply being convenient. You carry the title of Admin here as you’ve told me oh so many times in the past, surely you haven’t forgotten that. Therefore the need or desire of seeking approval is not a requirement for you. Yet you continue these feeble attempts to flatter others with your “complex vocabulary†and in turn only end up confusing the hell out of some people, some people who may have complex vocabularies themselves. You don't feel in-superior do you Sturm?
QUOTE
Surely you can cite an instance, or just admit you're wrong.
Cnonical. All I wanted to know was why I had a warning against me, but your poor word structure kept me from finding that out....at first.
QUOTE
Oh, and just because other people do it, doesn't mean it's okay for you to do it.
This I know, but thanks for the tip. ^^
Raijinili
Feb 25 2007, 05:30 AM
That's not a load of crap. "Angel Fallen" is using "fallen" as a verb, and it's grammatically incorrect. I assume that they're doing it on purpose rather than that Atlus that stupid.
Dr Strum
Feb 25 2007, 06:06 AM
QUOTE
Yet you continue these feeble attempts to flatter others with your “complex vocabulary†and in turn only end up confusing the hell out of some people, some people who may have complex vocabularies themselves.
I thought you said you knew the word "canonical." Since most people here are fic-whores, most of them would too. It's hardly an instance of me trying to "flatter"* others with my complex vocabulary, considering I used a word most everyone here would know.
QUOTE
in-superior
*facepalmsigh*
QUOTE
Cnonical.[sic]
This example doesn't count since, instead of giving proof that I used it incorrectly, like I requested, you floundered and said you just don't get it. Your misunderstanding is not a mistake on my part.
QUOTE
All I wanted to know was why I had a warning against me, but your poor word structure kept me from finding that out....at first.
No, I told you as soon as you asked why you were warned. The retort to your insinuation came after. Also, you should know why you have a warning against you; not only can you click and see the explanation, but we send out PMs to those we warn. Maybe you should read them.
* "Flatter" is not the word you're looking for here. To flatter someone is to compliment them, to make them feel respected or worthy. Using a "complex vocabulary" would be a way of making myself seem more intelligent than I truly am, not making other people feel better about themselves. Especially when it "confuses the hell out of" them, though I don't think confusion is a common thing when it comes to words; after all, that's what a Dictionary is for.
Raijinili
Feb 25 2007, 06:56 AM
ACKNOWLEDGE ME STURM
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