Persona 4 HD 2D Fighter (PS3/360), by Atlus and Aksys Options

[Shadow]

THis game is everything wrong with fighting games today so you're all probably going to love it.

Care to explain what part of it is "wrong"?

[Irysa]

Autocombos - Removes functionality of using 5a on whiff or block for pressure or poking. Dumbs game down in terms of hitconfirming and encourages overuse of light attacks.

"Simplified" inputs - Makes it "easier" to execute commands at the cost of letting them be less usable due to having lots of overlapping inputs in terms of macros. Basically, by having so many overlapping commands, you reduce the funtionality of each individual move. eg, A+C is roll but 2A+C is hop. This means I can't input roll when crouching or crouch blocking, making using roll actually more difficult than it should be.



Seriously though there are way too many macros. Why didnt they just make a 5 button game?

Automatic Shoryukens - As if SF4 wasn't bad enough with it's gigantic reversal window and 33 Shoryu, they gave every character a universal reversal on BD, resulting in more scrubs than ever mashing shoryuken at every opportunity, and making it even harder to actually maintain an interesting offensive pressure game.

Comeback mechanic - When you get low on life you get meter for free, a bigger meter bar, you take less damage, and get access to a stupid super. They're basically encouraging you to do some retarded 90% damage combo come back and punishing people for actually WINNING. Every game today does this and its fucking retarded, whether its Ultras in SF4 or X-factor in MvC.

Stupid teching shenanigans - Blazblue started it, this makes it even dumber and impossible to run any consistent mixup or hard down pressure.

Shitty walkspeed/low control over positioning - Spacing takes a backseat beacuse the actual control over your character is limited in fine tuning to bait and whiff attacks, not only that but,

Chickenblocking/blocking grounded attacks - Makes jumping way better than it should be. This also ties into the next point that,

Retaining movement options after committing to attacks in the air - Lowers aerial commitment and makes the spacing game incredibly linear. Air backdash also has invulnerability meaning even trying to tag people abusing this is difficult.

Jump cancels on block/Linear chaining - Typical Arc System Works design, because they make pressure and string variety so bad, as well as airdashes so hard to use for pressure they end up just adding in crap like this to make it "forcibly" work. Causes incredibly linear blockstrings devalues moves that dont lead to high damage. Doesn't help that 5a cant be used for strings either.

Instant blocking - Again, shitty ASW design. Creates a metagame based around instant blocking moves that are supposed to be safe/advantage on block but turn into disadvantage when instant blocked, meaning some moves become just flat out bad at high level play/are balanced to be dumb unless you use this mechanic.

Linear burst stock - Wow another ASW special. Every other developer except them has figured out by now that just giving people bursts on a seperate bar is really stupid because it doesnt actually add any depth to the game, it just means people get a get out of jail free card. Other series with combo escape options actually cause you to lose meter or access to particular abilities or take more damage on using a burst, wheras having a seperate burst bar just means bursts are going to happen.
There is no incentive NOT to burst other than if you want to land a very stupid combo (more on that later), meaning there is actually no interaction going on between both players in terms of decisions like this.

Negative Penalty - Man I'm just listing bad ASW mechanics at this point. Getting punished for running away greatly reduces the amount of available strategies and is a very sloppy way to force people to fight. It's yet another example of the amount of forced overdesign this game has in the characters and playstyle as well.

Building off that point, nearly every single character revolves around stupid gimmicks or landing particular attacks into very high damage combos. There is very little flexability in terms of individual playstyle, because so many of your moves and combos are basically completely prepatterned out from the get go. Its like the same bad design from BBCS2 all over again, most characters simply do trash damage unless they land a hit off a particular move, so what happens is every player begins to just fish for landing that one stupid combo.
Whilst damage variance is a common part of the genre, making stuff off most of your attacks do like 10% damage vs another attack that leads into 50% or more pretty much just cements how you're going to end up playing.

Neutral spacing goes out the window, offensive pressure leads to fuck all (and is easy to stop), mixups don't work without prepatterned setups they specifically give your character (Hi Kuma mr unblockable mixups), and half the tools in the game are based around letting you get in and hit somebody instead of actually the interaction of two players. That and most of the longer combos get really boring.

Fighters like this and most fighters today are designed to appeal to people who want to just do something they know is supposed to work because they watched on a stream or read a wiki or challenge mode told them to do, without any understanding of why it works, or the nuances involved in it. They're being made for people who play the same as they do vs the CPU, with little observance to the behaviour or patterns of the other player, making the game way less interesting and dynamic than what the genre's supposed to be about, spacing, reads, and experience.
SF4 started it and now nearly all fighters are now designed to let people fight fundamentals with execution and autopilot.


Don't even get me started on the visual aesthetic but that's Persona for you. The GUI is a mess and looks like somebody vomitted over the screen, with constant popups and character chatter obscuring various important parts of the interface.

[Shadow]

tl;dr

Nah
But I don't really agree with you on everything.

The autocombos and auto Shoryukens are totally dumb, yes. Since this is a fightan based on an RPG, they wanted to make it inviting for everyone. But that doesn't make it any less dumb.

Comeback mechanics aren't all that bad. Unless you're talking about X-Factor. I haven't tried this one yet, so I can't really talk.

Teching has NEVER stopped me from keeping a good rushdown in any ASW game.

The burst stock thing is rather subjective here, since you usually build meter for combo breakers quite faster than what the burst meter takes to refill.

Negative penalties are also subjective. Or are you going to say that you've never complained or seen someone complain about people who run away? Plus, it's not like you get it for backdashing only two or three times. It encourages you to use backdashes for evasion, rather than running away.

To be honest, I have NEVER seen this "particular move" that people always fish for in ASW games. And gimmicks add variety if implemented correctly, if you ask me.

Yes, fighters have been dumbed down a lot. Companies want to make them more appealing to newcomers rather than make them technical. They just want to make money.

[Irysa]

Comeback mechanics aren't all that bad. Unless you're talking about X-Factor. I haven't tried this one yet, so I can't really talk.

Yes they are. They go against the fucking basis of the game, to WIN. You actually get PUNISHED FOR WINNING AND REWARDED FOR LOSING.

THIS IS RETARDED.

Teching has NEVER stopped me from keeping a good rushdown in any ASW game.

"Teching" is not the problem, it's the stupid variable tech shit. It's like the recovery rolls in SFxT where you can "keep stuff going" but you have to basically guess on your own bloody okizeme which is retarded.

The burst stock thing is rather subjective here, since you usually build meter for combo breakers quite faster than what the burst meter takes to refill.

Wrong and wrong. Games with actually sensible burst mechanics (like Arcana and Melty Blood) take forever to get the bursts back. Melty you actually need to be at FULL METER and its only available for a short time, and Arcana means you cant use Extend Force for like 30 seconds or something ridiculous.

Hell even BAD games like F/UC or TVC got this one right, because you pay meter to burst. And those games are baaaad.

Negative penalties are also subjective. Or are you going to say that you've never complained or seen someone complain about people who run away? Plus, it's not like you get it for backdashing only two or three times. It encourages you to use backdashes for evasion, rather than running away.

Uh, how is it "subjective". The entire point of negative penalty is that you cannot base your playstyle on running away all the time. This just limits the amount of strategies you have available to use and is part of the forced overdesign.

PS I AM THAT GUY THAT RUNS AWAY ALL THE TIME

To be honest, I have NEVER seen this "particular move" that people always fish for in ASW games. And gimmicks add variety if implemented correctly, if you ask me.

You clearly dont watch enough videos then. IE, Labrys does like 70% damage off one of her supers if you start an-attack-I-don't-know-the-name-of-because-I-haven't-had-the-chance-to-play-her-myself-but-it's-in-most-Labyrs-videos, Liz's command grab (why does this char have a fullscreen command grab) leads into like 60% so everyone spams that, Yu players constantly spam diveslash because it leads to ridiculous damage, etc.

It was the same in fucking CS2, characters like Hazama actually did more damage off anti air 5a (lmao) than their typical bnbs.

Yes, fighters have been dumbed down a lot. Companies want to make them more appealing to newcomers rather than make them technical. They just want to make money.

Which is exactly why I said most of you are going to like it.

[Shadow]

Comeback mechanics aren't all that bad. Unless you're talking about X-Factor. I haven't tried this one yet, so I can't really talk.

Yes they are. They go against the fucking basis of the game, to WIN. You actually get PUNISHED FOR WINNING AND REWARDED FOR LOSING.

THIS IS RETARDED.

YES BUT THIS ISN'T AS EXTREME AS X-FACTOR, YOUR OPPONENT'S CHARACTER DOESN'T START MOVING LIKE THE FUCKING FLASH AND YOURS DOESN'T DIE IN THE MOST BASIC COMBO POSSIBLE.

Teching has NEVER stopped me from keeping a good rushdown in any ASW game.

"Teching" is not the problem, it's the stupid variable tech shit. It's like the recovery rolls in SFxT where you can "keep stuff going" but you have to basically guess on your own bloody okizeme which is retarded.

I'd rather have that than to have OTG moves that doesn't let you do a fucking thing and make you basically sit down and watch your character die or lose 80% of his health.

The burst stock thing is rather subjective here, since you usually build meter for combo breakers quite faster than what the burst meter takes to refill.

Wrong and wrong. Games with actually sensible burst mechanics (like Arcana and Melty Blood) take forever to get the bursts back. Melty you actually need to be at FULL METER and its only available for a short time, and Arcana means you cant use Extend Force for like 30 seconds or something ridiculous.

Hell even BAD games like F/UC or TVC got this one right, because you pay meter to burst. And those games are baaaad.

After playing for 3 hours, the most Bursts I've had in a single match were 4, and that was because the match had 3 LONG rounds. If we had meter Bursts, that would have fucking multiplied.

Negative penalties are also subjective. Or are you going to say that you've never complained or seen someone complain about people who run away? Plus, it's not like you get it for backdashing only two or three times. It encourages you to use backdashes for evasion, rather than running away.

Uh, how is it "subjective". The entire point of negative penalty is that you cannot base your playstyle on running away all the time. This just limits the amount of strategies you have available to use and is part of the forced overdesign.

PS I AM THAT GUY THAT RUNS AWAY ALL THE TIME

The screen isn't infinite, and you have to backdash like 8 fucking times in a row to get a negative penalty.
Unless you're on the opposite side, it's not going to be a problem. Hell, I've got 2 negative penalties. AND THE 2 OR 3 YUCOCKS I PLAYED NEVER GOT IT

STOP EXAGGERATING GOD DAMNIT

AND RUNNING AWAY TOO, FUCK YOU

To be honest, I have NEVER seen this "particular move" that people always fish for in ASW games. And gimmicks add variety if implemented correctly, if you ask me.

You clearly dont watch enough videos then. IE, Labrys does like 70% damage off one of her supers if you start an-attack-I-don't-know-the-name-of-because-I-haven't-had-the-chance-to-play-her-myself-but-it's-in-most-Labyrs-videos, Liz's command grab (why does this char have a fullscreen command grab) leads into like 60% so everyone spams that, Yu players constantly spam diveslash because it leads to ridiculous damage, etc.

It was the same in fucking CS2, characters like Hazama actually did more damage off anti air 5a (lmao) than their typical bnbs.

Yes, I know what you're talking about now. LEARN TO AVOID/GUARD FROM THAT
I FOUGHT A CHIE THAT DID DRAGON KICKS ALL DAY AND EVERY KICK DID 35%~40% OF MY HEALTH
GUESS WHAT I DID

LOSE, BECAUSE I'M AN IDIOT
BUT I WON ONE ROUND

Yes, fighters have been dumbed down a lot. Companies want to make them more appealing to newcomers rather than make them technical. They just want to make money.

Which is exactly why I said most of you are going to like it.

I grew up playing the first and fourth Samurai Shodown games, Garou and Last Blade 2. I haven't played Melty Blood, but I'll probably enjoy it as much as I'm enjoying P4A.
Except for the autocombo, fuck that.

[Irysa]

YES BUT THIS ISN'T AS EXTREME AS X-FACTOR, YOUR OPPONENT'S CHARACTER DOESN'T START MOVING LIKE THE FUCKING FLASH AND YOURS DOESN'T DIE IN THE MOST BASIC COMBO POSSIBLE

So stabbing myself in the hand isnt as bad as stabbing myself in the heart beause I won't die as easily.

Please explain to me why it makes sense that a losing player is rewarded for preforming badly? In a single player situation it can work to make the game easier, but in a Player vs Player scenario this is just counterintuitive to the whole point of competitiveness.

If you don't see the prevelance of comeback mechanics as a problem then you're probably the kind of person who relies on it to win anyway.

I'd rather have that than to have OTG moves that doesn't let you do a fucking thing and make you basically sit down and watch your character die or lose 80% of his health.

I haven't emphasised removing ground teching, it's the stupid variable tech timings all over the place. Admittedly this game isn't as bad as Blazblue in that respect, but I seriously don't know why a hard knockdown can't just be a hard knockdown/why when you get knocked down the game can't just go "yeah you're invincible and can get up in a bit now"

After playing for 3 hours, the most Bursts I've had in a single match were 4, and that was because the match had 3 LONG rounds. If we had meter Bursts, that would have fucking multiplied.

And this is relevant because? I haven't said "p4u should use meter for bursts" I said that the system of designing a seperate burst bar is static and linear. It doesn't actually add anything interesting to the game because theres no reason not to burst, and it's just another situation where someone gets a chance to do a combo, then is denied it at no real cost.

If you want my input then you shouldn't get bursts period because I hate the mechanic in general but that doesnt work in a game where stuff can do such dumb damage and the momentum rides so fast.

The screen isn't infinite, and you have to backdash like 8 fucking times in a row to get a negative penalty.
Unless you're on the opposite side, it's not going to be a problem. Hell, I've got 2 negative penalties. AND THE 2 OR 3 YUCOCKS I PLAYED NEVER GOT IT

STOP EXAGGERATING GOD DAMNIT

AND RUNNING AWAY TOO, FUCK YOU

This isn't an exaggeration. If I don't want to attack you, I shouldn't be forced to. That's what negative penalty is. It's just a part of forced design to make the two players have to come at each other.

Yes, I know what you're talking about now. LEARN TO AVOID/GUARD FROM THAT
I FOUGHT A CHIE THAT DID DRAGON KICKS ALL DAY AND EVERY KICK DID 35%~40% OF MY HEALTH
GUESS WHAT I DID

LOSE, BECAUSE I'M AN IDIOT
BUT I WON ONE ROUND

Well yeah obviously learning to deal with stuff like that is part of any game. I'm simply saying that this game is just another case of silly design with ASW when the damage variance is so obtuse that it actively encourages people to start spamming stupid moves, and said stupid moves become a big part of the game just because of the damage revolving around it.

It's like having to always be aware of shoryu fadc ultra in sf4, you can learn as many ways to get around it as you like, but the fact it exists is detrimental to the quality of the game. It's designed to appeal to people who don't know what they're doing and give them something they can feel good about in doing. Without understanding why it works or any nuances behind it.

Even if you want to argue that as a positive factor considering the strict entry barriers to the genre, my preference in these games is way learned more towards flexability and diversity, so I like being able to come up with stuff myself and play my own way, not be forced into an optimal plan beacuse the developers made everything else obsolete :\

I grew up playing the first and fourth Samurai Shodown games, Garou and Last Blade 2. I haven't played Melty Blood, but I'll probably enjoy it as much as I'm enjoying P4A.
Except for the autocombo, fuck that.

I said most of you. It wasn't really directed specifically, just because I know 90% of people here don't play fighting games/can't play them and play rpgs. That's who this game is directed at, the new players.

[Raijinili]

tl;dr

But comeback mechanics aren't automatically bad. Desperation moves have been out for a while.

Offensive comeback adds swing, which I consider bad. Maybe defensive comeback mechanic would be better.

The opposite of comeback mechanics, rewarding people for winning (e.g. meter in most games) is bad, because momentum also adds swing. The difference between the two swings is that one adds swing near the beginning, and one adds it near the end.