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Posted by: Greyhawk Mar 15 2007, 04:24 PM

Can anyone offer advice on the best way to handle Aegina's group of [High]'d valks that appear on BF15-3? Aside from avoiding them, that is. I'm trying to get as many items as possible and I really want that Golden Wheat thats behind them (not to mention the sword Aegina is carrying).

Posted by: Feral Phoenix Mar 15 2007, 07:47 PM

First, get Durant down to the first marked square and let him take care of Aegina's flunkies. When he's done, take everyone in a Union and bludgeon Aegina into retreating (with Durant as the Ace) with your most powerful cards.

Make sure that Durant's Morale is high beforehand just in case he loses.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 15 2007, 08:53 PM

Durant is a terrible idea because Durant is terrible.
Put Nietzsche on the water with her Shell Breastplate (no more pesky 50% critical) or Ice Javelin (suddenly Revolution isn't so deadly), and teleport Rosary or Roswell to behind Aegina's forces. Nietzsche should be your main attacker, but alternation is best; attack with whoever didn't get attacked on the enemy's turn.

Posted by: Another Necromancer Mar 16 2007, 05:25 AM

How exactly does the ice spear make Revolution less scary? I could understand if it just makes Nietzsche more likely to win 1-on-1, but no matter what I do anyone I send out on the battlefield gets totally owned.

And 50% critical? Is that equipment or the high status?

Forgive the questions, I'm a relative noob.

EDIT: Open mouth, insert foot. I'll remember to check the guide before making a fool of myself in future.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 16 2007, 05:30 AM

Because Nietzsche can do a more interesting Fatal Damage, then.

Equipment. High status only restores Morale on the unit's turn, and sets them to RAGE status regardless of past battle results.

You didn't really make a fool of yourself. Don't feel so bad about making a mistake.

Posted by: Feral Phoenix Mar 16 2007, 12:19 PM

Durant isn't horrible. He's just a pretty decoy with the power to lay the hurt on Aegina's troops like whoa. I've always whooped Aegina and company with him, Nietzsche, and Yggdra.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 16 2007, 02:19 PM

Okay, I'll consent that when you get the Stray Dragon he isn't horrible.
But until then he sucks.

Posted by: Feral Phoenix Mar 16 2007, 02:22 PM

If you say so. I guess it just depends on how much attention you pay to him.

(Like just about every other person in YU.)

Posted by: Fujibayashi Suzu Mar 16 2007, 08:05 PM

I'd not recommend on using Yggdra unless she's gotten some nice ATK MVPs. >.>
I used to do that. Until the stupid Valkyries kept Revolutioning her to death every single time.

Nietzsche is the best way to go, since even if she loses but if she's on water she has that ever so good -50% defense. Or if you just want the wheat (Which is more useful then the Death Bringer, since you can't use it for a good while) just have Durant get it.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 16 2007, 08:07 PM

Roswell and Rosary are far better at getting the Wheat.

Posted by: Fujibayashi Suzu Mar 16 2007, 08:10 PM

Not if you got Rosary and want to get the Dragon Killer, which is way better then the Wheat (My personal opinion)

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 16 2007, 08:16 PM

How does a better purpose on a different battlefield cause her to be worse at getting the Wheat?

Posted by: Fujibayashi Suzu Mar 16 2007, 08:18 PM

Because Rosary has 'walk' as her movement so she can't just move over Aegina and her troops?

Durant has 'Horse' so no problem. And you can't get the Hoof/Dragon Boots yet so you can't just change her movement to anything else other then Warp.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 16 2007, 08:40 PM

Warp Shoes, obviously you wouldn't make her walk past them.

Posted by: Fujibayashi Suzu Mar 16 2007, 08:44 PM

*facepalm*
Would you think the Golden Wheat is more important then the Dragon Killer? It's such a waste to use the Warp Shoes this early on.

If you got Roswell, just Warp on over and grab them. If you got Rosary, have the Warp Shoes and just really wanna waste them, do the same thing.

Otherwise, just have Durant do it. Or you could of course do plan D, and just smack in Aegina's face, get the Death Bringer AND Golden Wheat. Score! Did I mention EXP too? Yeah EXP is good too.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 16 2007, 08:57 PM

Maybe. But that has nothing to do with if Warping is better than Hoof movement for getting the Wheat.

Posted by: Fujibayashi Suzu Mar 16 2007, 09:17 PM

Like I said, if you really, REALLY just desperatly need that Wheat and don't think you'll need the Dragon Killer just Warp over and grab it.

But honestly, I'd find it easier just to smack Aegina for the EXP, save the Warp Shoes, and get the Wheat. Everyone wins.
Well except Aegina, but we don't care about you...

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 16 2007, 09:24 PM

This has nothing to do with the Dragon Killer, stop bringing it up.
This has to do with what is better at getting the item; a unit with warp movement or a unit with hoof movement.

Posted by: Fujibayashi Suzu Mar 16 2007, 09:26 PM

I just felt like it was worth mentioning the downside to using the Warp Shoes this early on, it's nice to have more info then less.

And I'll concede that if yes, Warp is better then Hoof. But I'm just warning people whom read this that using the Warp Shoes this early with Rosary will have a downside.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 16 2007, 09:30 PM

You do realize that almost everyone that would have the Warp Shoes this early most likely knows about said trade off?

Posted by: Sauce XIV Mar 17 2007, 01:09 AM

I didn't even know you could get the Warp Shoes this early, but then again, I wasn't able to steal from Mizer every single time so far.

By the way, I thought BF 15 only has two parts, and defeating Aegina wasn't necessary in either of them, so, aside from getting the Zolfy and EXP, why are you even fighting Aegina?

Edit: Oh wait, I found the third part, never mind, don't bother correcting me please on the "two part" part.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 17 2007, 01:12 AM

BF15 has three parts; you don't even have to encounter Aegina, but beating her is most definitely not necessary.

Posted by: Shake Mar 20 2007, 09:24 AM

I finished that battlefield yesterday with the same goal and suceeded!! :)
The way it worked for me was to use both Durant and Nietzsche (with breast plate), put Durant on the first turn on the bridge and moved Milanor and Nietzsche 1 space(I used necerogate to get there since I have Roswell). In my second turn I moved Nietzsche in the water to make a union with Durant while moving Milanor to the house with the straw hat (Used Steal for this). Next turns I used to attack the mercanaries group with the 2 spear units while moving milanor and Yggdra as close as possible to the bridge (not in union). I finished Izaghi off with Nietzsche to get his item.

Then I moved Durant on the 2nd flag (road) and Nietzsche in a water tile diagonal from it (close to the bridge) and waited for the valkeries to come. This part requires a bit of luck since the banshees with toothpicks used to come at me without their leader :) . I finished her with my strongest card after she attacked me while using 2nd strongest card (Nietzsche took her down in one blow with a critical, go Nietzsche!). I used the remainder of the turns to get the Golden wheat and to gloat with the hard aquired Deathbringer :)

Posted by: Feral Phoenix Mar 20 2007, 05:14 PM

Good for you! :D

Posted by: Fujibayashi Suzu Mar 21 2007, 04:32 AM

Too bad a strategy like that doesn't work. There are a ton of random variables, like Nietzsche's critical hit, the damage done in a charge/counter, the strength of someone else's units, etc. etc.

In honesty, the best way to beat her this early would be to risk suffering massive damage to Milanor and just have him STEAL that stupid Death Bringer. She's a lot less scary without it.

Or of course, lovely 'Avoid Critical' items. Keep in mind, I think the only ones you have this early is the 'Iron Choker' and 'Shell Breastplate', Female Only and Nietzsche Only respectively. So you'll need a decently strong Nietzsche and another female unit, so Yggdra or Rosary.

Posted by: Shake Mar 21 2007, 10:17 AM

true, but the problem is that the valkeries won't have the disadvantage they would have against spears (they are neutral against swords and staffs, to spear it's a triangle, so a decrease in ATK). I tried it several times with Roswell but in all the runs I would lose too much morale or wouldn't even make it though he has a 4 star TEC.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 21 2007, 01:18 PM

Valkyries are weak to Staves in YU's weapons triangle. The reason your Roswell was floundering is because he's weak to Holy and has low ATK.

Posted by: Shake Mar 21 2007, 02:34 PM

sorry sturm, you are wrong on the first one. Start your game and check weapon types, there you will see swords as well as axes and spears are neutral (-) against staffs. They are weak against spears and scythes ( a triangle). This does matter for if the valkeries go agressive they will only get a - when fighting spears instead a O when fighting staffs.

The holy weakness of necros I know. I should have said I meant at part 15-1 the knight on roads are strong and win sometimes despite using staff users since they usually have less ATK compared to Durant and Neitzche.

Also one comment on the sites guide: on battlefield 10-2 on place where you find the rune crystal the square says "demon crystal". just to let you know.

Posted by: Rhiannon Mar 21 2007, 02:59 PM

Sturm was right. Staff users are strong against sword users.



Note the text that says "Attacker" and "Target". A staff user attacking a sword user gets a circle.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 21 2007, 03:52 PM

The confusion lies in the fact that while Staff gets a bonus against Sword, Sword is not weak against Staff.

Also, Suzu was right about Rosary and Durant. Sturm just won't admit it.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 21 2007, 03:54 PM

Prove it.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 21 2007, 04:05 PM

Finally stopped deleting my posts?

Assumptions: You want both things. Priority is Dragon Killer. You picked Rosary.
Rosary is the only one who can get Dragon Killer. She needs Warp Shoes to do it. Therefore, Warp is reserved for a neighborhood around that battlefield.
Rosary can't warp for both items. So you must have a second choice. The next best choice is Durant. Because Rosary is out of the running (because your priority is Dragon Killer), and Roswell isn't in the party, Durant becomes THE best choice for Wheat, under the assumptions.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 21 2007, 04:08 PM

We're not talking about long term. Who is immediately best, is what we're discussing. If the person we were originally giving advice to (was there someone?) wants the Dragon Killer, that doesn't change that warping is best for the Wheat; it just changes what they'll use.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 21 2007, 04:10 PM

No, YOU'RE not talking about long term. SUZU was. You're trying to use your own assumptions to prove her proof (which were under different assumptions) wrong. Though she's wrong under YOUR assumptions, that doesn't make her wrong under HER assumptions (assumptions which she stated).

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 21 2007, 04:16 PM

No I wasn't. Would I consent that most people would not use the Warp Shoes that early, instead putting them off to BF25 if I was trying to prove him wrong on that?

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 21 2007, 05:09 PM

Under the following conditions, disprove that Durant is the best choice:
1) You picked Rosary.
2) You want the Dragon Killer more than the Wheat.

I already gave a proof why Durant IS the best choice, so you'll have to disprove my proof to say that Suzu wasn't right.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 21 2007, 05:11 PM

Now you're just ignoring everything.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 21 2007, 05:18 PM

You asked me to prove that Suzu was right. I did it using her assumptions. Then you said that we weren't talking about long term. I said that those were the assumptions, so the statement was correct. You then countered my point that she would only be wrong if we used your assumptions by using the technicality that you never claimed that she was wrong. So I ignored it and tried to get back to the point, which is that Suzu was right and you didn't admit it.

And "I admitted she was right about that one little thing" doesn't count.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 21 2007, 05:32 PM

No, you said those were HIS assumptions, making his point correct UNDER said assumptions.

No, YOU said that he would only be wrong under my assumptions, to which I retorted that I even said in the long term most, if not all, would hold off on using the Warp Shoes, but that we were not talking about the long term so it was irrelevant.

No, you ignored that we were already at the point that you had ignored the entire thread, and drew back to an assumption of a long term goal. This is just bad form.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 21 2007, 05:51 PM

They were THE assumptions because Suzu said that "if (assumptions) are true, then Durant is the best for the job." The statement in question (the one that can be right or wrong) is the conditional, NOT that Durant is the best for the job. I proved that the conditional is true.

You: "Roswell and Rosary are far better at getting the Wheat."
Suzu: "Not if you got Rosary and want to get the Dragon Killer, which is way better then the Wheat (My personal opinion)"
You: "How does a better purpose on a different battlefield cause her to be worse at getting the Wheat?"

Suzu's response was a conditional: "If you assume that you got Rosary and want the DK, then Rosary and Roswell are not better at getting the wheat." The conditional is true if, whenever Rosary or Roswell is better at getting the wheat, you don't want DK or you didn't pick Rosary.

You then responded that this doesn't make her worse at getting the wheat (ignoring the fact that Suzu didn't claim that Durant was better at getting the wheat without the conditions, thereby making your argument a Straw Man fallacy). Whenever Suzu said that Durant was better at getting the wheat, it was under the conditions that would only apply for the long term.

YOU might not have been talking about the long term, but you were the only one. Suzu kept trying to bring in the long term, but you brushed it off and continued attacking a weaker target that you made up.
Show me where Suzu ever said that Durant was the best, without a long-term conditional goal.

Edit: He said "best way to defeat Aegina's troops", not "best way to get the wheat."

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 21 2007, 06:01 PM

Why do you bother quoting if you're not even responding to the quoted text?

That was following my claim that Rosary and Roswell are best for getting the Wheat - nothing else said because Warp is always better than Horse movement for getting the Wheat.

I included the condition in my retort.

And whenever I said anything it was under the assumption that the long term did not matter. In my very first post proclaiming Rosary and Roswell to be better, I made no mention of a long term because it was irrelevant.

What "weaker target that I made up?" I continually stated that future battles were irrelevant to my statement.

Show me where I ever claimed Suzu said that.

Posted by: Feral Phoenix Mar 22 2007, 03:12 PM

I don't think there's much point to this discussion now, except to prove that Sturm is allergic to admitting that he's wrong.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 22 2007, 03:45 PM

There might be a point to that if I WERE wrong in this situation.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 25 2007, 06:13 PM

That's only assuming no restrictions on resources. Which you assumed and Suzu didn't.
What condition was that, exactly?
And yet, she was first to post about the best person to get the wheat. You challenged it, she justified her response. You then dismissed the justification with such gems as, "The long term doesn't matter," which is false. The long-term matters sometimes, and she stated that her choice for "best" was affected by long-term decision-making. She was using a long-term condition before you were not.

Justify how the long-term is irrelevant, then. Because you certainly haven't shown why ignoring the long-term makes for better advice.
The weaker target being "Durant is the best for getting the wheat, unconditionally". She never claimed otherwise. Why, then, were you two arguing about whether Durant was the best rather than whether the long-term was irrelevant?
The whole argument was about whether or not Durant was better at getting the wheat. The point should've been settled right away: Rosary and Roswell were better under the short-term, and Durant was better for the long-term. You thus acted as if she was arguing for Durant without conditions. So I assumed you thought there was somewhere where she argued that.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 25 2007, 06:31 PM

I made no challenge, I interjected.
So he's just as at fault as me for not explaining the conditions from the start.
Fanelia Beam is far better than Disaresta against the Dark Aghart.
Is that statement wrong? No.
Does that mean you should waste your 1x Fanelia on the Dark Aghart? No.
If someone asks what is the best weapon against the Dark Aghart, one - without taking long term consequences into account - should respond "Fanelia." Would one? No. Because the final battle is a far better place to throw away your Fanelia.
Now in application: Did I ever claim that the Warp Shoes should be used for the Golden Wheat? No. Did I claim they were better than another method of obtaining it - disregarding future consequences? Yes. Do you understand now?
Because Suzu doesn't know how to argue.
Assumptions are bad for you.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 25 2007, 06:58 PM

An interjection that went directly against her advice. Is that not a challenge?
When Suzu esplained her conditions, you rejected them. At that point, the discussion should've been about which conditions should've applied. You challenged her conditions, she didn't challenge yours. The burden was then on you to show why your conditions should've applied.
I already understood that. I never said that you claimed that Rosary was better under her conditions.

But your example doesn't work. I would not respond with no regard to long-term consequences, because I don't want someone coming back yelling about missing an opportunity because of bad advice. The cost of using Durant in the battle will most likely be not as high as losing the Dragon Killer. I would in fact respond with an answer for both cases.

Also, the analogy doesn't work. No one asked for the best, they just asked for a way. She provided a way, so she wasn't wrong.
And what's your excuse?
This whole argument is about what assumptions to use.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 25 2007, 07:07 PM

No.
Logic has no place in real life, Rai.
I just said no one would respond without regard to long term conditions, did you read the entire thing?
There's not much of a cost in losing the Dragon Killer. It's not like it stops you from defeating Dragons. I know Rhea has never used the card.
Your argument here doesn't work since no one asked for a way, either.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 28 2007, 01:08 AM

I gave a reason why one SHOULDN'T ignore long-term consequences.
That's irrelevant. The cost is still most likely going to be higher than the cost of using Durant.
Even more reason why your analogy is wrong.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 28 2007, 01:14 AM

That doesn't matter.

Really? Because Durant has to go all the way around, then go back; that's a massive time delay.

Try explaining within the same post you accuse.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 28 2007, 02:16 AM

Your claim was that they should ignore long-term consequences. I claimed the contrary.
Time delay > Dragon Killer not at all?
You made an analogy between someone asking "the best way" and this situation. I said it wasn't good because it was this but not that, and you responded that it wasn't even this.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 28 2007, 02:30 AM

Not only did I not, I said I haven't several times.

The time delay could kill the MVP bonus that makes Dragon Killer unnecessary.

But this is about the best way. What I said is no one asked; I didn't say it wasn't about the best way.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 30 2007, 05:49 PM

"...one - without taking long term consequences into account - should respond 'Fanelia.'"
If that's your only reason for the MVP bonus, then the Dragon Killer also makes the MVP bonus unnecessary.
The best way unconditionally? Because that's what we're arguing over.

And I said that the analogy failed because no one asked for the best way. You claiming that this is about the best way doesn't counter my point, which was that the analogy doesn't work BECAUSE no one asked.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 30 2007, 05:57 PM

And did you read the part after that? About it being stupid to do that even though that is the answer that was asked for? Apparently not.

No, no, no it doesn't. Dragon Killer doesn't stop Dragon units from killing you; you still need to out-survive them.

No, we're not.

So Suzu is at fault for answering a question no one asked, you don't have to make him feel bad.

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 30 2007, 06:40 PM

You're using a different definition of "should" than I am.
Again, it's a conditional statement. "If that's your only reason for the MVP bonus, then the Dragon Killer also makes the MVP bonus unnecessary."
Then what are we arguing about?
I don't have anything against answering a question no one asked.

Posted by: Dr Sturm Mar 30 2007, 06:47 PM

Then why is my analogy bad?

Posted by: Raijinili Mar 30 2007, 07:19 PM

Because the circumstances aren't the same?

Posted by: Megaolix Apr 5 2007, 04:34 PM

With some luck, I managed to defeat them. I'll tell what happened.

Durant has the Boss Bandana equipped. Nietzsche, the Iron Choker (I wanted to save the Shell Breastplate for Inzaghi when he has the Criticalizer). Durant also had 3 stars in all but luck, which he had 2 for. Also, the Boss Bandana made him reach 4 stars in Gen

When the group appeared, my units were around the flag that was the farthest from them. Some of them moved a little, and only one valkyrie crossed the bridge to try to get my group. She stop at the second flag.

My turn, I use Durant and Nietzsche to kill the valkyrie. Durant can't move after the attack so I left him and Nietzsche where they were. I also moved Yggdra to the gate, which acted like a fort.

Aegina's group turn. Two others Valkyries pass the bridge to attack Yggdra. Yggdra, with the fort and 3 stars in attack, defeat them but don't kill them.

My turn. I move Durant on the bridge and places Nietzsche in a union with him. They kill both Valkyries. After, I move Nietzsche in the water, still in a union with Durant. I move Milanor one space from being third in the union. Then I start praying. My card at that time had around 2250 power.

Aegina's turn. She attacks Durant. Durant manages to not get a critical (after all, it's still 50%, meaning 1/2 chances of not getting one). He beats her barely with only him left. The other Valkyrie lose to Nietzsche too. Both are alive.

My turn. I use the steal card (with 2833 power at the time) to make Durant get the Golden wheat and move him back on the bridge. I place Milanor in the Union and attack. Durant defeats Aegina's with 2 units left on my side. Nietzsche defeat and kill the other Valkyrie. Milanor attacks, killing all but the head in the charge and only lose 1 guy from the counterattack. I saved all the charge bar from earlier and uses steal to get the Death Bringer. He then defeats her with only him left.

I think I got lucky, but if anyone an idea, that was what happened for me.